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  1. #51
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Consider motivations, before effectiveness, maybe.

    Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.

    What is a lie - a counter to/of reality?

    If that is the case, an ideal is a lie, isn't it, since no reality can meet an ideal.

    By clinging to truth, ideals, principles, we create a deep need for illusion, paradoxically.

    So the NT could be the most effective at it simply because they're incapable of seeing the lies as wrong - "rational blinders". In their search for perfect systems - what can be, the gaps created due to what is, are too easy to fill with lies. And a lie to the self, if believed, makes a more convincing liar to externals, simply.

    At their worst,

    INTPs lie to themselves that they are better than others, can game any system: it is this that creates the illusion of competence they seek, but raises expectations they later suffer from, when reality intrudes.

    ENTPs need masks to live. We suffer when some possibilities are closed, and are apt to select what truths to tell (the flex referred to earlier), in order to keep options open.

    INTJs play cold games of subterfuge in an attempt to control from the inside and test boundaries to select their path. Failure to consider opinions of others deemed "not worth it/not up to the mark" could lead to being blindsided, simply because an opinion could hold truth, independent of the speaker. If you've ever tried to get a point of realism through to an INTJ in full swing, you'll know what this means.

    ENTJs wear the masks of ENTPs to seek the same rule INTJs do. But there is only one truth - theirs. Is this not a lie? To whom?

    So.. perhaps the NT is most effective, because they've the greatest need for illusion, to close the gap between the unreachable ideal and the reality.

  2. #52
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    I dunno what we mean by lying, but ENxPs tend to be highly effective at imitating other people. The difference between an ESxP and an ENxP is like the difference between a movie star and an actor. A movie star imitates him/herself while an actor is adept at imitating imaginary characters.

    An alternative theory suggests that ESxPs are personalities while INxJs imitate another personality because of their lack of confidence in their ability to use their inferior Se. With the INxJ, this is often to protect themselves because their Se function is so underdeveloped, hence the INxJ (and INTJ, in particular) often tries to appear more self-confident than he/she actually is.

    The ENxJ is more confident about demonstrating a cunning ability in the outside world, since they are extroverted. But they are not quite confident in their Se ability by itself, but they are more confident in showing their acting ability in front of other people -- the ENxJ can very likely be the kind of person that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.

  3. #53
    Junior Member Garivande's Avatar
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    My ENFP daughter is clearly an actor, and certainly has earned herself a reputation of being a "good" lier. The thing is she can't keep it up. If you wait a minute or so she will reveal everything - because she absolutely cannot keep a secret! And she has never tricked me (or maybe this is a mother thing...).

    We discussed this the other day, my older INTP daughter claimed that the ENFP one was a "notorious" lier. Which is rather unfair. I replied that I think that the INTP one is just as good a lier - except nobody will ever find out!

    I think that the "I" quality makes it easier to keep a facade. The "N" makes it easier to create a believable story, and if you're more "T" than "F" you will probably feel less bothered about lying to other people? And perhaps the "P" will make you think that any consequenses from lying will be dealt with in a very far and unpredictable future...

    I very seldom lie, it's more practical to tell the truth: you don't have to remember any fabricated facts when asked later...
    But if I lie, I do a good job doing it. Since I'm usually seen as very honest and perhaps even a little naive, I am always trusted when I set up an "innocent" face and present this or that story (some of my friends say they never know when I'm joking or when I'm serious - so when I am joking I must always add a "signal" smile...!).
    However, I don't lie well in "real time" - I must have time to manufacture the actual "story"!

  4. #54
    Member MX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.
    You have uncovered me!

    This is where I do my most "damage", to tell a portion of "the truth" - enough to satisfy the desires of a questioner, but not the whole story. Why? Because the "gory details" of my full existence are on a "need to know" basis - and most people do not need to know. Besides, most people only want to confirm their own preconceptions anyway, and are not terribly concerned with "the truth". So why not give them what they want?

    So the NT could be the most effective at it simply because they're incapable of seeing the lies as wrong - "rational blinders". In their search for perfect systems - what can be, the gaps created due to what is, are too easy to fill with lies. And a lie to the self, if believed, makes a more convincing liar to externals, simply.
    My "rational blinders" are to the emotional needs of others - a failure to recognize that someone else wants something other than logic and rationality from me. As such I am ignorant of those needs and unable to comply.

    When I produce an outright lie, or even a partial-truth I am fully aware of that occurance. I am also, in the case of an outright lie, aware that this is "not right", but - in true INTJ fashion - I do it because it accomplishes some purpose. I'm sure the phrase, "The end justifies the means", was coined by an INTJ (or at least an NT of some sort)!

    Lying to one's self is an interesting proposition! I have yet to be clever enough to "trick" myself into believing my own lies. Whenever I start down that path a little voice chimes in and says, "Now you know you don't really believe that?!". Of course, that doesn't stop me from acting on that falsehood, but I am cognizant of the subterfuge. I've "lied" to myself about relationships, about motivations for doing things, about my self-reliance; but in each case, I knew that I was trying to pull the wool over my own eyes. It's a strange thing to experience!
    MBC - writing bad poetry, kickin' ass.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garivande View Post
    I very seldom lie, it's more practical to tell the truth: you don't have to remember any fabricated facts when asked later...
    But if I lie, I do a good job doing it. Since I'm usually seen as very honest and perhaps even a little naive, I am always trusted when I set up an "innocent" face and present this or that story (some of my friends say they never know when I'm joking or when I'm serious - so when I am joking I must always add a "signal" smile...!).
    However, I don't lie well in "real time" - I must have time to manufacture the actual "story"!
    I like this point a lot. NTs lie from a point of practicality, whereas I've known a lot of other types who do it more from a place of whimsy. When taken from a practical standpoint (i.e. there's a very good reason to lie vs tell the truth), there's motivation to keep the lie intact and coherent. It also rests on the desire for streamlining and simple efficiency. Why tell an elaborate lie when a small one will do the trick much better? Or, as others have said, merely twisting the partial truth so it sounds complete? Very little to no evidence to fabricate, low risk of confusion, and long term sustainability against memory dissonance (most of what you remember is exactly what you told someone else).
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  6. #56
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    ...
    Perhaps the NT liars are effective, because it frequently isn't an outright untruth, but more of a selective truth, which works to create an impression the NT is not bothered to correct.
    ...
    I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

    Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

    Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.
    I think the cause is helped by not lying when others would. Multiple people have said the same thing from their own personal experiences: "Normally I'm so blunt and honest that nobody expects me to lie."

    It's a rare (and usually extreme) case when an NT will bother to lie in order to preserve feelings or hide personal shame. I find I normally lie in order to preserve the secrets or dignity of others instead of myself, because I cannot give their consent for my disclosure. When it's down to me or my actions? At most I drop very small, soothing untruths to smooth the way for a task or meeting.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  8. #58
    Member MX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I used to do this very frequently and skillfully.

    Now I am usually completely transparent with people. I don't hide anything.
    I'm guessing that what follows will come off as being completely stupid, but at that risk...

    I have found that people really don't want "complete transparency". My experience has been that there are extreme emotional outbursts, and violent reactions to "full disclosure" in relationship matters, religious matters, and anything where the recipient has a large "stake" in the disclosure. On the one hand we're told to respect the feelings of others, while on the other hand we're admonished for being brutally honest (even the term has negative connotations).

    So, if I tell my co-worker, "You know Bob, you're a loud-mouthed ignoramous who gets on everyone's nerves. Everyone in the office hates you.", then I'm not hiding anything - but, perhaps I should. Or, if I tell my wife, "Honey, your jealous tirades are only the manifestation of your insipid insecurity and it's driving a wedge between you and I", then I'm giving full disclosure, but perhaps I shouldn't.

    I prefer saying, "Bob, you have a lot of ideas - why don't you take some time and write them down and I'll take them to the Board for review", and, "Honey, you have nothing to worry about with Susie. I think it's cute that you're concerned" - both "lies", but more palatable to the hearer.

    As the saying goes, "...you can't handle the truth!"
    MBC - writing bad poetry, kickin' ass.

  9. #59
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    My dad just told me this story last year; apparently it happened when I was 11-13. I don't remember it.

    (Keep in mind he's an ENFP.)
    He was all excited about this thing he learned at work on an inservice school day (he's a teacher) about "Islands of Competency" and got all inspired about it; he wanted all his students and us kids to realize our true selves. So, in a long car ride, we talked all about it. He told me some of his, how he discovered them along the way in life. He told me that if we know our strengths we can use them for the benefit of others.
    Then came my turn, and he asked, "Usehername, what's your greatest Island of Competency?" And apparently I very nonchalantly replied, "I'm a phenomenal liar." I was just being honest; I perceived it as my greatest Island of Competency.

    And he said a little part of him died inside. lol. poor NF daddy.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #60
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    My mom's boyfriend is an ENxP who works as a caller at Progressive Auto Insurance. Everyday he comes home and talks about what happened during his day, but seeing how he does it everyday and it's always an interesting story (he's not just telling it in an interesting way), we all doubt what he's saying is true. But I think that he would be very effective at lying to a stranger. He is definitely Ne dominant because he insufferably bounces wacky but unrealistic ideas (which I truthfully think are very cool, such as his proposition of building a water slide going out the bathroom window).

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