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  1. #41
    Member MX5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This is a curious realization, as it implies willful stagnation.

    I struggle to imagine a premise where I would remain satisfied with the corpus of my ignorance, such that I currently realize to be (as yet beyond my acuity) and, if only to protect some shadow of psychological independence, I imprison myself within it.

    Perhaps this isn't the case with you, but I assure you it is with me.
    I wouldn't characterize it so much as being satisfied with the status quo, but rather (on my part) a lack of comprehension, or absence of realization that there exists some system of thinking that is "other" than my own. Not that mine is the only possibility - I simply fail to see a different state of mind. "Rational blinders" as it were.

    Do you foresee yourself ever ascending into "enlightenment" wherein yours is instead a multitude of sharpened perspectives cooperating into a visceral, intellectual sledgehammer?
    ...only through dilligent, applied effort. That image is appealing though, and perhaps worth the effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, MX5 basically said better what I was trying to say... plus, I wasn't saying that the fluidity was arrogance and egotism, but that it can be misused out of arrogance and egotism, when the person believes it's being rightly used out of integrity (that's what they tell themselves).
    Ah yes, the misuse of that "trait" (through arrogance and egotism) is seductive!
    MBC - writing bad poetry, kickin' ass.

  2. #42
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MX5 View Post
    I wouldn't characterize it so much as being satisfied with the status quo, but rather (on my part) a lack of comprehension, or absence of realization that there exists some system of thinking that is "other" than my own. Not that mine is the only possibility - I simply fail to see a different state of mind. "Rational blinders" as it were.


    ...only through dilligent, applied effort. That image is appealing though, and perhaps worth the effort.

    Well said, my friend. I wish you the very best.

  3. #43
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    First, I will start by saying that the xNTxs that I know and work with on a daily basis are generally the most forthright and honest people. However, I have noticed that they also tend to be the most cunning liars when they choose to do so, and they are almost without flaw.

    xNFx- They can be just as convincing as xNTxs, however, generally only if they are doing so to help someone, or if they believe that someone has violated them somehow. Otherwise they are seemingly less adept at this.

    xSxJ- Often the less decisive will be fooled, however, they often provide too much information. This usually leads more intuitive people to notice the inconsistencies in the proposed "facts".

    xSxP- Most of the xSxPs I know are terrible liars. (Not that that's a bad thing by any means) ESTPs, if unquestioned, can be extremely persuasive. Once you begin to question them they have a very hard time maintaining the facade.

    I think that the key to lying in this sense is the ability to think quickly and be able to "paint a believable picture". It's my observation that sensing types tend to be at a disadvantage in this arena.

    This is more of an observation on my behalf of those that I encounter on a regular basis, and not entire types' demographic in general. It is very possible an erroneous conclusion, however, it seems to hold true more often than not.

    Let me know what you think/have observed, as I am interested to hear it.
    When I was a child I lied habitually in order to avoid severe physical abuse by my parents, and I was very good at it.

    I learned to value honesty very highly, and now I think I hardly ever - if ever - lie at all. I have a "thing" about the truth. My desire for truth is actually annoying to some of my family members. LOL! Even to me sometimes!

  4. #44
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I relate to that INTJMom...

    Actually, from when I was about 9 I got into the habit of lying all the time about stupid things, to impress people. By my early twenties I was pretty close to being a compulsive liar; it seems so obvious now, but at the time it took a lotta therapy for me to realize I was lying because I didn't think it was possible for anyone to like me for who I truly was, so I had to pretend to be someone else and lie about literally almost every aspect of my life. Even really stupid things, like someone would ask me where I went for a walk to and I'd say the post office instead of the grocery store - totally pointless.

    Took a lot of getting out of because it had become a reflex action and half the time I believed my own lies.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #45
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    I have never lied!

  6. #46
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I have never lied!
    Oh the irony
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  7. #47
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...
    Took a lot of getting out of because it had become a reflex action and half the time I believed my own lies.
    Me, too.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    First, I will start by saying that the xNTxs that I know and work with on a daily basis are generally the most forthright and honest people. However, I have noticed that they also tend to be the most cunning liars when they choose to do so, and they are almost without flaw.

    xNFx- They can be just as convincing as xNTxs, however, generally only if they are doing so to help someone, or if they believe that someone has violated them somehow. Otherwise they are seemingly less adept at this.

    xSxJ- Often the less decisive will be fooled, however, they often provide too much information. This usually leads more intuitive people to notice the inconsistencies in the proposed "facts".

    xSxP- Most of the xSxPs I know are terrible liars. (Not that that's a bad thing by any means) ESTPs, if unquestioned, can be extremely persuasive. Once you begin to question them they have a very hard time maintaining the facade.
    Interesting thread! I know only one NT (INTP) who lies....and is the most manipulative individual I have EVER known. He also became furious when I told him that I knew he was lying and provided him with proof, something his SJ wife never seemed to be able to do. All of the other NTs I know...are extremely honest, and quite frankly, I don't think they can be bothered to lie...as it takes too much effort, etc.

    The NFs that I know do lie (ENFJ), but the NF (INFJ)....just avoids....to get out of technically LYING.

    Hhmmm......SJs....not too good at lying as they seem to have trouble thinking on their feet. You're right, they provide WAY too much information...and aren't cunning enough to keep their mouths shut...as they chatter on constantly! SJs also don't seem to be able to read people and don't seem to be observant enough to determine if the OTHER person is lying.

  9. #49
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    Interesting thread! I know only one NT (INTP) who lies....and is the most manipulative individual I have EVER known. He also became furious when I told him that I knew he was lying and provided him with proof, something his SJ wife never seemed to be able to do. All of the other NTs I know...are extremely honest, and quite frankly, I don't think they can be bothered to lie...as it takes too much effort, etc.

    The NFs that I know do lie (ENFJ), but the NF (INFJ)....just avoids....to get out of technically LYING.

    Hhmmm......SJs....not too good at lying as they seem to have trouble thinking on their feet. You're right, they provide WAY too much information...and aren't cunning enough to keep their mouths shut...as they chatter on constantly! SJs also don't seem to be able to read people and don't seem to be observant enough to determine if the OTHER person is lying.
    I don't know weather or not ENFJs are better at lying, per se, that they can most often "charm" the other party into seeing their point of view. The ENFJs I have known have a terrible ability to misdirect, once you throw them off their locus of Ideals. I.E. having to lie about something that they don't truly believe in. xNTxs are more likely to for-see future events and do their best to avoid a situation in which they are forced to lie.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  10. #50
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    I'm not really effective at lying. Even at "bad" situations ; lying can make them worse.

    I lie very very seldom. Less than 3 times a year.
    ENTJ - LII - Intimate Five

    +++ PRAISE CHRIST +++ - don't be afraid : seek and defend the Truth with boldness.

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