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  1. #21
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Night, what do you refer to when you talk of pruning idiosyncrasies?

  2. #22
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Night, what do you refer to when you talk of pruning idiosyncrasies?
    Characteristics usually associated within subtypes.

    Globally, I'd consider the following as approximate examples: ENFJ - charisma; ESFJ - concern; INTJ - competency.

    The quirks I speak to are specific to variation within a regional type: ISTJ - tradition; ISTP - level-headedness.


    Ultimately, I seek to find the logic in connecting entities like "morality" as a descriptor inside of regional types.

  3. #23
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    It's a case of being true to yourself Night. Some people find it easy to go against their own beliefs, by effectively adapting and changing those beliefs in order to support whatever action they wish to take. As I said, this kind of sophistry is something NT's can be very adept with - but not uniquely.

    Ethics... hmm... well I don't believe in absolute morality, no. I probably share that in common with most NT's. But I've come in recent years (due to external pressures not giving me the room to weedle out with conceits) to see that an awful lot of what I thought was 'changing my views in light of new information', was actually 'shifting mental paradigm as it suits me to feel intellectually justified in whatever I want to do, because it's logical'.

    You can use logic to justify just about anything, but that doesn't make it right. As for what 'right' is, I don't know... except that I know how I feel when I haven't done it. And rather than paper up that feeling with intellectual conceits and 'logical' justifications, I'm more likely these days to apologize and make amends.

    It's a weird kind of marriage between the integrity of the T and the morality of the F. But I know it doesn't make me 'not an NT anymore' precisely because it's come so hard for me to learn it, and still doesn't always come naturally. Left to my own devices, I revert to the unscrupulous rat-bag I am by nature!!

    Perhaps a difference I notice between SF's and NT's is that SF's have definite morals - they know what's right and wrong. They'd talk of "the difference between right and wrong", knowing what they mean. While an NT often doesn't really have any beliefs in particular - they just figure them out as they go, according to individual situations and objectives. And believing themselves to be more objective than they truly are most of the time, and prone to great arrogance, we have a tendency to evolve those beliefs in accordance with whatever suits us. Adapting our beliefs to our intended actions, as opposed to the SF who seems more to adapt their actions to their beliefs. Except ESFJ's maybe, who adapt their actions to others' beliefs. Sorta... maybe...
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  4. #24
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It's a case of being true to yourself Night. Some people find it easy to go against their own beliefs, by effectively adapting and changing those beliefs in order to support whatever action they wish to take. As I said, this kind of sophistry is something NT's can be very adept with - but not uniquely.

    Ethics... hmm... well I don't believe in absolute morality, no. I probably share that in common with most NT's. But I've come in recent years (due to external pressures not giving me the room to weedle out with conceits) to see that an awful lot of what I thought was 'changing my views in light of new information', was actually 'shifting mental paradigm as it suits me to feel intellectually justified in whatever I want to do, because it's logical'.

    You can use logic to justify just about anything, but that doesn't make it right. As for what 'right' is, I don't know... except that I know how I feel when I haven't done it. And rather than paper up that feeling with intellectual conceits and 'logical' justifications, I'm more likely these days to apologize and make amends.

    It's a weird kind of marriage between the integrity of the T and the morality of the F. But I know it doesn't make me 'not an NT anymore' precisely because it's come so hard for me to learn it, and still doesn't always come naturally. Left to my own devices, I revert to the unscrupulous rat-bag I am by nature!!

    Thank you - I appreciate your concision, substitute.

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Characteristics usually associated within subtypes.

    Globally, I'd consider the following as approximate examples: ENFJ - charisma; ESFJ - concern; INTJ - competency.

    The quirks I speak to are specific to variation within a regional type: ISTJ - tradition; ISTP - level-headedness.


    Ultimately, I seek to find the logic in connecting entities like "morality" as a descriptor inside of regional types.
    Isn't the goal to document common idiosyncrasies and organize them rather than "prune" them? I'm not sure I follow.

  6. #26
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Isn't the goal to document common idiosyncrasies and organize them rather than "prune" them? I'm not sure I follow.
    Perhaps.

    Maybe my word choice is proving to be an encumbrance. Let's use yours, instead.

    How might we document "morality" (can we?) as it pertains to type?

  7. #27
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    My sister is the most cunning liar I have ever come across. She is a highly, socially intelligent SF.

  8. #28
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Maybe I've painted a too negative picture of the NT there... I don't mean to say that we're all totally amoral rat-bags with no central ethics or beliefs to our worldviews.

    What I meant was more that we have a few core tenets, a few principles, which are pretty minimalist and very open to interpretation. And when young/immature/unhealthy (not equating those three except in that they can all lead to this) have a tendency to interpret those tenets, or to interpret our actions, in such a light as they can be believed to support or be supported by those tenets. Thereby believing ourselves to be acting with integrity, when in fact, it's arrogance and egotism.

    As we get older we usually seem to come to a realization that those principles, if truly adhered to, have a profound and rippling effect through all of our actions and choices, and to hold our choices up to them and remonstrate ourselves when they fall short, rather than hold the beliefs up to our actions and change the beliefs/interpretations. Then we can be really awesomely enlightened people with very strong senses of honour and integrity.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #29
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Maybe I've painted a too negative picture of the NT there... I don't mean to say that we're all totally amoral rat-bags with no central ethics or beliefs to our worldviews.

    What I meant was more that we have a few core tenets, a few principles, which are pretty minimalist and very open to interpretation. And when young/immature/unhealthy (not equating those three except in that they can all lead to this) have a tendency to interpret those tenets, or to interpret our actions, in such a light as they can be believed to support or be supported by those tenets. Thereby believing ourselves to be acting with integrity, when in fact, it's arrogance and egotism.
    Quite alright, my good man.

    I know the NT mind fairly well - you've diagrammed it with a surgeon's touch.

    Thanks again!

  10. #30
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    How might we document "morality" (can we?) as it pertains to type?
    If you wanted to be scientific about it:

    1.) Propose a definition of morality that could be agreed upon by other members of your field, or at the very least everyone else involved in the project.

    2.) Determine the best way to measure the existence of your defined "morality".

    3.) Gather a large group of subjects of equal representation of each of the types and set to work.

    4.) Draw what correlations there are to be drawn.

    ...good luck on that first step.

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