User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 97

  1. #11
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    7,233

    Default

    Of course not.

  2. #12
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    The best lies (most convincing, hardest to spring) are the simplest. The ones where you change as few details from the truth as possible, so that what you're telling is very nearly the truth - it just veers off in another direction at one point where it's perfectly logical that it might do so.

    NF's and SJ's in my experience tend to feel too bad about lying, to be particularly effective at it, having generally somewhat stronger moral centres. They 'know' it's wrong, and that guilt is like a label on their foreheads.

    If the idea is that NT's can lie through our teeth because we're clever and less scrupulous about moral details (easily circumventing them with a bit of intellectual sophistry), then I hardly think that's something to boast about.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  3. #13
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sp
    Posts
    1,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    If the idea is that NT's can lie through our teeth because we're clever and less scrupulous about moral details (easily circumventing them with a bit of intellectual sophistry), then I hardly think that's something to boast about.
    It's not something to feel bad about, either. It's neutral.

  4. #14
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    It's not something to feel bad about, either. It's neutral.
    ...Illustrating my point exactly

    It's not something we'd feel bad about, and we would say it's neutral. Not so most other types... to them, lying is lying is lying, and it's just plain wrong. Sure there might be the odd occasion when they really do justify it (e.g. bride asks on wedding morning "does my butt look big in this?"), but on the whole, I'd say they'd avoid lying unless absolutely necessary for someone else's benefit.

    NT's will just lie to further our aims/points. We're a rum lot, and I include myself in that.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  5. #15
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sp
    Posts
    1,080

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    NT's will just lie to further our aims/points. We're a rum lot, and I include myself in that.
    True. I'm unconcerned with "morality". "Morals" is what the self-righteous call their opinions.

  6. #16
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    8w7 sp/sx
    Socionics
    SLE Ti
    Posts
    534

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think it works on different levels.
    NTs may seems more cunning somehow, but the empathic force of NFs can make them very persuasive liars.
    Building on what you've said, using Keirsey, NFs are most effective at Diplomacy. And I think of the four temperaments' skills, Diplomacy entails a silvertongue best. They're kings of oratory, masters of rhetoric; the perfect politicians. Alternatively, you could say SPs are good at lying, especially ESTPs. You know the cliche; the 'hard sell' of the car salesman.

  7. #17
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Building on what you've said, using Keirsey, NFs are most effective at Diplomacy. And I think of the four temperaments' skills, Diplomacy entails a silvertongue best. They're kings of oratory, masters of rhetoric; the perfect politicians. Alternatively, you could say SPs are good at lying, especially ESTPs. You know the cliche; the 'hard sell' of the car salesman.
    ENTP and ENFP as a team together could sell sand to an Arab.

    (mind you, using my brother and I as an example of an ENTP/ENFP team, it's not usually so much by effective lying that we 'sell' or persuade, but by presenting true facts in a creative light that appeals most effectively to the person we're persuading... presenting things in such as way as to make them lead to only one conclusion - the only thing a reasonable and decent person would do - which just happens to be what we want them to do)
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #18
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    True. I'm unconcerned with "morality". "Morals" is what the self-righteous call their opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    ...Illustrating my point exactly

    It's not something we'd feel bad about, and we would say it's neutral. Not so most other types... to them, lying is lying is lying, and it's just plain wrong. Sure there might be the odd occasion when they really do justify it (e.g. bride asks on wedding morning "does my butt look big in this?"), but on the whole, I'd say they'd avoid lying unless absolutely necessary for someone else's benefit.

    NT's will just lie to further our aims/points. We're a rum lot, and I include myself in that.

    Interesting.

    Both positions seem to needle at a values-based decision template that, for my dime, appears better an indication of personal intellectual experience than MBTI mores.

    Yet, should we decide to operate from the conclusion that MBTI could generate a lingua franca within subtypes, to end does one distinguish within a regional bracket (NT/NF/SP), the quirks that serve to further prune these idiosyncrasies?

    To the OP, would an INFJ or an ENFJ better cultivate a lie? In terms of probability, I don't think it fair to fishhook the "E" as naturally disadvantaged to his otherwise-reciprocal "I" by virtue of his extroversion.

    As a sidebar, what do you believe provides the critical mass that might separate the INTJ from, say, the ISTP?

    For the sake of simplicity, we'll assume the lie is of equal intellectual heft for all parties - wherein then does the disparity arise?

  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    4,601

    Default

    Yeah Night, the lingua franca within types is true for sure. I often see it happen here - an NT will say something that other NT's know means a certain thing, but other types will often misunderstand and think something else is meant - because they're all speaking different languages, in a way. I think it's not so much the words that change their meanings, as all the assumed baggage that comes with the words and phrases is different in general for different types, or just different people at all, but there's more likelihood of overlap between people who are more similar in temperament.

    I mean to say that when a person makes a statement or proposition, there are usually a load of disclaimers and caveats that they assume are taken as read by the listener - they aren't always. When NT's talk to each other, they more often seem to 'sense' each other's caveats, or even share them... so it kinda is like using specialized vocabulary.

    A bit like if I say "collect" to many people, they'd assume I mean "gather a load of stuff together", whilst if I say it to a priest, they'd probably first of all think of "a short prayer that comes after the opening parts of the Mass"; to a delivery driver "obtain and take with you". None of the meanings is more correct than another, but depending who you're talking to, you've a different chance of being misunderstood and a different level of necessity to dot the i's and cross the t's in order to make sure you're understood.

    Much of what's perceived as 'lying' is, IMO, actually cross-communication of this kind. I said I'd do X (variant 1), you assumed I meant X(variant 2); I did X1, you accuse me of lying because IYO, I said I'd do X2.

    I've come to see the NT ease with circumventing morality as somewhat jerkish, and though it's a tendency I fall into as well, I'm aware of it and in the process of overcoming it. The fact that it (i.e. the automatic disinclination to use lying) doesn't come easily is, I think, illustration of the ease with which many NT's can lie... it's because it's so much easier to use lying for some ends that I find it difficult to resist using it, in favour of less efficient, but more ethical means.

    As for ISTP's - and SP's generally, my spider sense says it's lies of omission that they're more adept/inclined towards. As opposed to the 'tangled web' approach.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #20
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5/8
    Socionics
    ENTp None
    Posts
    4,754

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah Night, the lingua franca within types is true for sure. I often see it happen here - an NT will say something that other NT's know means a certain thing, but other types will often misunderstand and think something else is meant - because they're all speaking different languages, in a way.

    When NT's talk to each other, they more often seem to 'sense' each other's caveats, or even share them... so it kinda is like using specialized vocabulary.

    A bit like if I say "collect" to many people, they'd assume I mean "gather a load of stuff together", whilst if I say it to a priest, they'd probably first of all think of "a short prayer that comes after the opening parts of the Mass"; to a delivery driver "obtain and take with you".

    I've come to see the NT ease with circumventing morality as somewhat jerkish, and though it's a tendency I fall into as well, I'm aware of it and in the process of overcoming it. The fact that it (i.e. the automatic disinclination to use lying) doesn't come easily is, I think, illustration of the ease with which many NT's can lie... it's because it's so much easier to use lying for some ends that I find it difficult to resist using it, in favour of less efficient, but more ethical means.
    Curious.

    I'd yet anticipate morality as an alogical addendum to the principles that sincerely connect NTs - or other types, for that matter. I suspect the traits that commonly braid are likely less specific.

    I wonder if NTs would instinctually recognize their own?

    How might you divide the NT from the SF?

Similar Threads

  1. Which Philosopher Do You Dislike the Most?
    By logan235711 in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 113
    Last Post: 08-02-2017, 11:14 PM
  2. What are the most effective learning methods? What is yours?
    By Oaky in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 11-11-2015, 10:31 AM
  3. [MBTItm] NTs, the first word out of your mouth.
    By Natrushka in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 01-03-2015, 06:12 AM
  4. [NT] The most Rich NT type?
    By Sinshred in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-30-2013, 06:12 PM
  5. [MBTItm] HEIST!!: Which Type Selections Would Makeup The Most Effective Team To Rob A Bank?
    By Winds of Thor in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 05-31-2009, 09:21 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO