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  1. #41
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Just for the record, I don't think most of black culture is SJ. Like I said, circumstances forced a diverse group of people to homogenize and lose their cultural distinctions and but also reform another. For the sake of survival, black people have had to stick together because of the amount of common problems and obstacles. There's had to be a wholeness because if you were fractured as a group you wouldn't have as much power. Of course black people are hugely influenced by larger society but then again influence is multi-directional.

    I believe MBTI is a culturally insensitive instrument, so it's not surprising to me if most of mainstream culture is typed SJ then those same markers would be used in black culture to label SJ. If for example, being overly-religious is a marker of being SJ (valid or invalid, true or not) then most people would use that indicator to type someone as SJ. I know quite a few black intuitives that are very religious and I'm the heathen according to them.

    I think MBTI does a lousy job of translating what functions are in different contexts. I don't think a black SFJ presents the same as a white SFJ. I just don't. I can tell when I'm in a group of black SFJs and when I'm in a group of white SFJs but the similarities between those groups are just majorly different. Frankly I do think black SFJs appear more SP than white SFJs. Same thing goes with sensing and intuition within black culture and white culture. White people tend to use level of weirdness, bizareness, and inattentiveness to surroundings as a measure, but I don't think that's an accurate measure in black culture.
    Interesting way to put it- you are totally right.

  2. #42
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Dude I m willing to bet most INxx feel that way. I grew up in many differnt environments through my life, from rich to poor and I can say without a doubt, I have never fit in.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #43
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Very interesting. I think I noticed something like this based on cultural differences with my girlfriend. I am an INFJ shes an ENFJ we share many similarities in the way we process things, but the way she does it, while definitely NF Fe, Ni as an ENFJ does, she is different from the other ENFJs I know. She is also black (the other ENFJs I know are white)

    Can you explain more in your opinion on how cultural differences between whites vs blacks will manifest in usage of say Ni or Fe?

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Just for the record, I don't think most of black culture is SJ. Like I said, circumstances forced a diverse group of people to homogenize and lose their cultural distinctions and but also reform another. For the sake of survival, black people have had to stick together because of the amount of common problems and obstacles. There's had to be a wholeness because if you were fractured as a group you wouldn't have as much power. Of course black people are hugely influenced by larger society but then again influence is multi-directional.

    I believe MBTI is a culturally insensitive instrument, so it's not surprising to me if most of mainstream culture is typed SJ then those same markers would be used in black culture to label SJ. If for example, being overly-religious is a marker of being SJ (valid or invalid, true or not) then most people would use that indicator to type someone as SJ. I know quite a few black intuitives that are very religious and I'm the heathen according to them.

    I think MBTI does a lousy job of translating what functions are in different contexts. I don't think a black SFJ presents the same as a white SFJ. I just don't. I can tell when I'm in a group of black SFJs and when I'm in a group of white SFJs but the similarities between those groups are just majorly different. Frankly I do think black SFJs appear more SP than white SFJs. Same thing goes with sensing and intuition within black culture and white culture. White people tend to use level of weirdness, bizareness, and inattentiveness to surroundings as a measure, but I don't think that's an accurate measure in black culture.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  4. #44
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Very interesting. I think I noticed something like this based on cultural differences with my girlfriend. I am an INFJ shes an ENFJ we share many similarities in the way we process things, but the way she does it, while definitely NF Fe, Ni as an ENFJ does, she is different from the other ENFJs I know. She is also black (the other ENFJs I know are white)

    Can you explain more in your opinion on how cultural differences between whites vs blacks will manifest in usage of say Ni or Fe?
    I don't know if this needs to be in a different thread or not, I'll let Lucky Rabbit decide. I'm curious to know what you see different as well...we can compare notes.

    Firstly, when I think I'm dealing with a Fe-dom (regardless of race), particularly an ENFJ who isn't presenting as a mythical ENFJ the thing that clues me in first is the person isn't emitting much. I'm not talking about temperature or friendliness or outgoingness or anything like that, it's more or less a feeling that I'm getting a very pleasant yet unremarkable facade. I say facade in the sense that I'm seeing the outside of something, I really can't see through the windows, but the outside is not necessarily being misrepresented. This isn't fake or manufactured nor do I see it as hiding anything. I literally interpret it as being in a waiting area or foyer to their home, this is where I've been "put" and an effort will be made to keep this area as comfortable as possible. This is not a cookie-cutter space, this space is where we talk to each other it's filled with our own particular artifacts. I realize this person also similar spaces for other people, each decorated with their own particular artifacts specific to their interactions. I don't resist being in that space and I generally appreciate the fact this person has created this place for us. This space is where we can safely figure out if we want get closer to each other or not. I suppose people would call this formal, but I don't see it as such.

    The white NJs I know are all through work. One INTJ female (she's cool as hell...I like her alot), one INTJ man (one year I mentioned I went to the local Pride Parade, found out he was gay and we started talking from there. I'm not even sure how that topic came up but he warmed to me considerably after that), and three ENFJ women. It's interesting because with the ENFJ women I got that above feeling with them. Two of their types were confirmed earlier this year when we took the MBTI and I'm pretty confident about the third but of course I could be wrong.

    All I can say is what I see from the outside. These observations are based on conversations we've had over the last few years. If I count myself as ENFJ and compare myself to them, they are goopier than me, more emotive---but we're similarly excitable. When I say goopy, I mean there's a romantic element to them, which I feel less comfortable in expressing than them. When I say similarly excitable I mean I see how similar things can get us going and once any of us start going, just pull up a seat. I think they're more conscientious and sympathetic than me and I'm more detached, analytical and political than them. I have less of a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt than they do, are more skeptical and suspicious of people and their motives. I can see how they're more prone to look for the positive in people, while I'm more prone to getting an accurate picture of someone, regardless of if it's positive or negative. One of the ENFJs has expressed such sentiments, so I don't feel completely crazy in thinking not so pleasant things. I feel like they are more easily offended than me and I have thicker skin. I feel like they are better charmers and smooth conflict better, while I'm less conflict-avoidant and put things out front and on the table more. I feel more realistic and they're more optimistic and have more contagious enthusiasm. As far as idealism is concerned, I feel like they have said some things that make me think they're naively idealistic...like "If I could buy the world a coke" kind of thing, which just strikes me as level one beginner. When I have had conversations about things like race (one particular conversation about the Prison Industrial Complex) with one of them she was visibly uncomfortable so I just stopped.

    I think enneagram has something to do with this and I'm a 1w2 and from what I can guess they are two 2w3s and one 3w2 so that may account for some differences as well. The 3w2 is the flashiest and most SP-like out of the the ENFJs. She's very quick...things happen very fast with her and she carries a wind. I think she comes across as The Mythical ENFJ the most.

    The Ni Fe difference seems to be more or less how it presents, how it's focused, what it chooses to focus on more than anything else. I only know black INFJs and they are very close friends I've known for years so I may not see them as clearly as the others. What I can see in comparison is not as ethereal and otherworldly. Appearance-wise, there's nothing outstanding about them so it's more a mental thing. More political, feel more present and have greater presence, not in their heads as much, feel sharper, laser-like, homing device, more incisive feel that is very much aimed and directed at people, while the white ENFJs seem to use their Ni Fe for how to smoothing and winning people over, but not necessarily to "cut through" anything or get to root causes. I hope that makes sense. The black NFJs say more soul searing comments, but that has more to do with how comfortable you with another person. Comparing them to INFJs on the forum, they don't obscure themselves as much and are more direct. Like I said they're my friends, and I'm comparing working relationships to personal relationships which can lead to discrepancies. And they're INFJs not ENFJs.

    I think I've met one black ENFJ. She was a temp and we took to each other very quickly. I'm not quite sure how this happened, but we never exchanged emails or phone numbers and she was only at my job for one month, so while we'd hang out at work and after work once she left the assignment I never knew what happened to her. I could've found her if I wanted to and I'm sure she could've found me, but I didn't try. It was weird. I think we poked at each other and that was that.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  5. #45
    Junior Member jadine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Just for the record, I don't think most of black culture is SJ. Like I said, circumstances forced a diverse group of people to homogenize and lose their cultural distinctions and but also reform another. For the sake of survival, black people have had to stick together because of the amount of common problems and obstacles. There's had to be a wholeness because if you were fractured as a group you wouldn't have as much power. Of course black people are hugely influenced by larger society but then again influence is multi-directional.

    I believe MBTI is a culturally insensitive instrument, so it's not surprising to me if most of mainstream culture is typed SJ then those same markers would be used in black culture to label SJ. If for example, being overly-religious is a marker of being SJ (valid or invalid, true or not) then most people would use that indicator to type someone as SJ. I know quite a few black intuitives that are very religious and I'm the heathen according to them.

    I think MBTI does a lousy job of translating what functions are in different contexts. I don't think a black SFJ presents the same as a white SFJ. I just don't. I can tell when I'm in a group of black SFJs and when I'm in a group of white SFJs but the similarities between those groups are just majorly different. Frankly I do think black SFJs appear more SP than white SFJs. Same thing goes with sensing and intuition within black culture and white culture. White people tend to use level of weirdness, bizareness, and inattentiveness to surroundings as a measure, but I don't think that's an accurate measure in black culture.
    I don't know if I can agree with this. I don't think you can assume a religious person is SJ, but research has shown that different religions are more likely to have people with a certain type and as far as Christianity, SJ's are overrepresented in church and church leaders were more likely to be intuitive. I do think personality type is both a result of nature and nurture so if blacks became more SJ due to the fact that we had to unite then so be it. And whites are probably slightly less SJ because there is more room for them to be themselves. As far as blacks who have NP traits, I do agree with you that it appears less weird, bizarre and less inattentive to surroundings than whites because they have to suppress it more to blend in to the culture which is more SJ than whites. IMHO...

  6. #46
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think I've met one black ENFJ. She was a temp and we took to each other very quickly. I'm not quite sure how this happened, but we never exchanged emails or phone numbers and she was only at my job for one month, so while we'd hang out at work and after work once she left the assignment I never knew what happened to her. I could've found her if I wanted to and I'm sure she could've found me, but I didn't try. It was weird. I think we poked at each other and that was that.
    Oprah is supposed to be ENFJ, so I guess she could be an example for you.
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  7. #47
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    I believe I've always been INP-ish, but my T was mainly supressed by my family. Until a few years ago, in which my Ti came out full force. Social status didn't do much to influence me towards this way of thinking. I've just always wanted to figure out how systems worked.

  8. #48
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Oprah is supposed to be ENFJ, so I guess she could be an example for you.
    Hmm, I had her pegged as ENTJ.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #49
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I see Oprah being an F. She is way to into fixing every social problem that exists. And though she starts conflicts, she does it directly to solve them, as well as the fact that most of her time is devoted to causes.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Hmm, I had her pegged as ENTJ.
    No. ENFJ/Enneagram Type 3. Cult leader. Charismatic. Conveys warmth and caring for all of humanity. Positive. Ambitious. Basks in the Limelight. No problem tooting her own horn. Very driven and goal oriented (J). Accomplishes most all that she sets out to accomplish. Role model. "F" ish in the way she connects with others (her guests). There is nothing deep to her, intellectually speaking. Cares more about the heart (and human relations) than the mind. No way a "T".

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