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  1. #71
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Cannot the "spark" become stronger if seen by understanding eyes? Causing mystery or confusion is not, in and of itself, the inherent power of the spark. There's nothing mysterious about a veiling curtain to me. That curtain's toast. What I'm after is truth which means whatever is being veiled. I'm not trying to remove the essence of the object - I simply want to understand it and view it from all angles. "If you really knew me, you wouldn't like me" is something we learn from others. That's a huge problem for me as an NFJ in the first place because we all seem to hold the idea that we're monsters.



    Might you explain this phenomenon in your own words? And when did you adopt this mindset?



    And in a very strange way, I'm sorry for it. It's never been my intention to cause such upheaval with the ENTPs in my life. I want them to feel safe, and I feel that I've created an environment for them to say whatever they need to in my presence. But in those darker moments when they're clearly staggering around with spears in their back and blood is running into their eyes, it's difficult to get any sense out of them - logic can't save you, logic can't tell you what the heart wants/needs.

    When someone "has your number", yes, it's terrifying, I've been there, but knowledge leads to power ultimately and maybe *that's* the real trouble - having power over someone else through knowledge of them. Who isn't startled by that? As an NFJ, especially as an ENFJ, I spend most of my time underground/submerged. I think the NFJ need to not be "exposed" is shown as a parallel in the ENTP. It can be a very equal trade if both parties don't panic at the sight of their reflection. NFJs don't relish the idea of being stripped bare either. We're very protective of ourselves for survival reasons.

    I remember watching young deer run and spring around the horse pasture like pinballs and my horses played with them. If you can hop the fence, you can run mad. I've tried to impress that on them. They know the door is open, but they take it only rarely when they're practically bleeding to death and really need me.
    As to the first. I think I am looking at it from the romantic stand point. I think the impression in a relationship, or to obtaining a relationship requires the mystery of not knowing and constantly learning. I remember a quote that vaguely references this. It was something along the lines of 'Your love for the one your with should increase everyday you are with them.' The mindset that this could create with this type is that what caused the appeal to be in the relationship in the first place were the crazy ideas, the ingenious mystery of how they create something. If there is nothing more to learn about us then we think that we have failed this quote.

    Looking at this from the friendship perspective we have the fact that we create friendships through our ideas. This fire quickly burns out, or has the ability to depending on the person with whom you are trying to build the friendship with. First of all if they find your ideas annoying the thought of ever telling an idea again is thrown out and we have to adapt. We are good at adapting, but the human psyche can only take so much failure before it gives up. If our ideas, a great deal of what we rely on to build relationships, is thrown out the door we are defenseless. On another hand if our ideas aren't deemed creative enough the thought that more 'shocking' methods must be taken in order to keep this friendship. This is another 'pass or fail' situation. You have to hope that peoples personal convictions are strongly in place so they don't mind the playful criticizing of them. The thing about leading with Extraverted Intuition is that it's as mentally risky as Se is physically risky. We take giant leaps of faith. I do all of this in order to connect with someone.

    The following consequences that can arrive out of these actions are one. The people with whom you shares with think "Well, it's just him/her being crazy again. Let's completely disregard it." or when you don't constantly produce new information they begin to see the reality of your character and think you are boring. These may be irrational in their own rights, but it's a fear none the less. These consequences are the true confidence crippler in my opinion. These are constantly running through our minds. Extraverted Feeling is dangerous in the third spot because this is our only other way to connect with our enviroment and without the help of our Intuition we become helpless and lash out. I would like to note again, this is my own personal experience with forming both types of relationships.

    A juggler is constantly related to our thought process, but when you begin to juggle sharper objects the tension rises and the rate of failure increases because of the fear. This is what sends me into fits of depression. I have yet to find someone who doesn't give me the above responses. That's also why I create a mask. This was discussed awhile ago on the forum. I had to adapt to my environment and that adaptation caused me to blend in. This is not a natural state for me and like emotions pent down, true personalities will spill out the sides because of the repression of our ideas. I could go on, but we'll leave it at that for now. I hope this made sense.

  2. #72
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    As to the first. I think I am looking at it from the romantic stand point. I think the impression in a relationship, or to obtaining a relationship requires the mystery of not knowing and constantly learning. I remember a quote that vaguely references this. It was something along the lines of 'Your love for the one your with should increase everyday you are with them.' The mindset that this could create with this type is that what caused the appeal to be in the relationship in the first place were the crazy ideas, the ingenious mystery of how they create something. If there is nothing more to learn about us then we think that we have failed this quote.
    Human beings should, ideally, be in a constant state of morph, of evolution. We, none of us, are the same. Static individuals are simply using more and more of their energy to overcome the inertia of forward motion. Those aren't people you would ever romantically align yourself with in the first place. That problem, if it ever were a concern, is solved in a theoretical context. Find someone just as frightened or repelled by the idea of becoming "static", who has the same drive to learn, the same insatiable curiosity about the world. This doesn't equal frenetic behavior either - it can be quiet, like the vast silent aura of the unknown one gets when walking into a large library.

    As a human always in the grip of flux, how will you ever cease to captivate? I'm constantly being surprised by people, even the ones I've known all my life. In fact, I find it a plus to have an existing base of knowledge about them to reference when they do something that veers (or seems to veer). That way I can more fully appreciate what's happening to them (and to me by association, because their evolution cannot help but cause change in me too).

    I think digging up a treasure requires some knowledge of where to find it, what it is, what it was used for, how it came into being... Otherwise, it's just a dirty lump of something that was lost or forgotten. This is why I'm fascinated with language. There are so many little chips, chunks, vapors of centuries inside them, especially the English language, that great sponge. Etymology tells me *meaning*, tells me why this fragment was important or lucky enough to survive while others died.

    Another quote you may feel you've failed is "Familiarity breeds contempt". Do you fear contempt? Do you fear personal condemnation?

    Looking at this from the friendship perspective we have the fact that we create friendships through our ideas. This fire quickly burns out, or has the ability to depending on the person with whom you are trying to build the friendship with. First of all if they find your ideas annoying the thought of ever telling an idea again is thrown out and we have to adapt.
    You would wish to be friends with someone who finds your ideas an aggravant?


    We are good at adapting, but the human psyche can only take so much failure before it gives up.
    Describe this beast of failure.

    If our ideas, a great deal of what we rely on to build relationships, is thrown out the door we are defenseless. On another hand if our ideas aren't deemed creative enough the thought that more 'shocking' methods must be taken in order to keep this friendship. This is another 'pass or fail' situation. You have to hope that peoples personal convictions are strongly in place so they don't mind the playful criticizing of them. The thing about leading with Extraverted Intuition is that it's as mentally risky as Se is physically risky. We take giant leaps of faith. I do all of this in order to connect with someone.
    Interesting. Can being told you are fundamentally mistaken cause catastrophie for you?

    The following consequences that can arrive out of these actions are one. The people with whom you shares with think "Well, it's just him/her being crazy again. Let's completely disregard it." or when you don't constantly produce new information they begin to see the reality of your character and think you are boring.
    And why is this the true "reality"? Who told you that you were boring? Was it a self-generated idea? Could it stem from a pass/fail you may apply to others and therefore get cut with yourself?

    My brain is constantly striking upon the pass/fail concept. As a J, things go into two piles: reject or accept. Reject consists of whatever I absolutely cannot process without hideous turmoil, like severe human suffering/cruelty, advanced math (yay, dyslexia!), the perfect human body, and other things I need help with and have trouble dealing with on my own. Accept consists of things I already have ease with, things I have dealt with through help from the reject pile, and things I may fear or distrust but truly want to understand.

    If others knew what a critical place my brain was, they would flee.

    These may be irrational in their own rights, but it's a fear none the less. These consequences are the true confidence crippler in my opinion. These are constantly running through our minds. Extraverted Feeling is dangerous in the third spot because this is our only other way to connect with our enviroment and without the help of our Intuition we become helpless and lash out. I would like to note again, this is my own personal experience with forming both types of relationships.
    When my ENFP sister's Ne gets undermined, it's a whole world of trouble trying to right the ship. It's hard to watch.

    A juggler is constantly related to our thought process, but when you begin to juggle sharper objects the tension rises and the rate of failure increases because of the fear. This is what sends me into fits of depression. I have yet to find someone who doesn't give me the above responses. That's also why I create a mask. This was discussed awhile ago on the forum. I had to adapt to my environment and that adaptation caused me to blend in. This is not a natural state for me and like emotions pent down, true personalities will spill out the sides because of the repression of our ideas. I could go on, but we'll leave it at that for now. I hope this made sense.
    It made a great deal of sense. Thank for sharing your insight.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  3. #73
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Human beings should, ideally, be in a constant state of morph, of evolution. We, none of us, are the same. Static individuals are simply using more and more of their energy to overcome the inertia of forward motion. Those aren't people you would ever romantically align yourself with in the first place. That problem, if it ever were a concern, is solved in a theoretical context. Find someone just as frightened or repelled by the idea of becoming "static", who has the same drive to learn, the same insatiable curiosity about the world. This doesn't equal frenetic behavior either - it can be quiet, like the vast silent aura of the unknown one gets when walking into a large library.

    As a human always in the grip of flux, how will you ever cease to captivate? I'm constantly being surprised by people, even the ones I've known all my life. In fact, I find it a plus to have an existing base of knowledge about them to reference when they do something that veers (or seems to veer). That way I can more fully appreciate what's happening to them (and to me by association, because their evolution cannot help but cause change in me too).

    I think digging up a treasure requires some knowledge of where to find it, what it is, what it was used for, how it came into being... Otherwise, it's just a dirty lump of something that was lost or forgotten. This is why I'm fascinated with language. There are so many little chips, chunks, vapors of centuries inside them, especially the English language, that great sponge. Etymology tells me *meaning*, tells me why this fragment was important or lucky enough to survive while others died.

    Another quote you may feel you've failed is "Familiarity breeds contempt". Do you fear contempt? Do you fear personal condemnation?



    You would wish to be friends with someone who finds your ideas an aggravant?




    Describe this beast of failure.



    Interesting. Can being told you are fundamentally mistaken cause catastrophie for you?



    And why is this the true "reality"? Who told you that you were boring? Was it a self-generated idea? Could it stem from a pass/fail you may apply to others and therefore get cut with yourself?

    My brain is constantly striking upon the pass/fail concept. As a J, things go into two piles: reject or accept. Reject consists of whatever I absolutely cannot process without hideous turmoil, like severe human suffering/cruelty, advanced math (yay, dyslexia!), the perfect human body, and other things I need help with and have trouble dealing with on my own. Accept consists of things I already have ease with, things I have dealt with through help from the reject pile, and things I may fear or distrust but truly want to understand.

    If others knew what a critical place my brain was, they would flee.



    When my ENFP sister's Ne gets undermined, it's a whole world of trouble trying to right the ship. It's hard to watch.



    It made a great deal of sense. Thank for sharing your insight.

    A lot to answer. I suppose I'll start with my friends finding my ideas annoying (I suppose that's what aggravant means). It would seem that after awhile this happens http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49j6_uk0g3k. Watch from second 42 to a minute. It seems like what happens is Extraverted Intuition works fluidly and this can possibly be why Ti clashes with it. Ti take the fluidity and structures it like building a dam for the river of our ideas. Overall this dam is necessary inorder to provide a course for the ideas so they shape some point, but this doesn't mean it tries to fight back. When I'm coming up with 'wacky' ideas and my friends seem unimpressed it's like I begin to force my ideas work and ultimately manually disrupting the fluidity and causing a block. You may say. "Then why are these people your friends?"... I ask the same question, but to me it seems like I have two main choices. Either deal with this set back or be isolated for a great amount of time, but isolation is the death of a naturally extraverted person. You say then that I shouldn't rely on others so much. Very true and I have come far with that concept, but alas I need someone/thing to here my ideas. So, I feel at this point in time I am trapped with these people. I will say their are a few that I can do this too, but not enough. Not a good phrase, but it never seems like enough. So, I don't wish them to be this way, but at this point in time I just have to wait it out.

    The beast of failure. I have become accustomed with it. It's like a comedian telling a joke to the wrong crowd. Even though he can adapt not only is his confidence wearing down, but he can only draw from reserves. So, if you approach a subject without having studied it, or learning all of it and let's say that your interests not allign with the crowd at this moment. And your first impression doesn't go over too well then you find yourself branded a 'freak', or 'weirdo'. This not only sucks the hope out of making a connection with someone, but you have to wallow in it. Location, location, location. Even though you want to change and learn, resources are equally as important as ideas. If your interests and the location (mainly the people around you) don't allign. Should you change because of them, or do accept the branding of 'misfit'. It's the constant struggle on figuring out who and what you adapt too. If you adapt too much you lose yourself. Of course having thought of this before I do realize that you can never not know who you are because even being confused is a trait in personalities, but let's say that personality does have a core and if we say each core is supposed to have a common thread, but they way you think alters that theory and you find yourself not believing the crowd, you don't feel that common thread between others you are isolated none the less. That's what society does to force your hand. It's the choice you have to make. You know this I am sure. It just seems difficult to be two different personalities at one time. The one that wants to be EXTREMELY unique and the one that wants to feel connected. I don't believe any thought process can avoid the feeling of isolation even the INTP. These are meant to give the gravity of what one must consider when trying to adapt. The contradiction is as plain as day. We are all the same, but different. The ENTP in a way embodies that. We are the ones that want to be crazy and feel connected, to have the best of both worlds, but reality has different plans for such thoughts. If you cannot figure out how to adapt correctly you fail by societies terms and however much you feel like you aren't attached to it in anyway you find quickly how wrong you were. Simply living binds you to it.

    Being told I am fundamentally wrong works on a scale that is directly porportional to both how long I have thought on a subject and my interest level in that subject, but this I think is a universal trait in thinking. But, yes it can.

    Society is our ever chainging yard stick. It measures out what is and what is acceptable and 'not boring'. The quickest and most effiecient way to build a relationship is to play towards the yard stick, but this goes directly against the ENTP's thought process, but ironically it encompasses it. We try to be at both ends of the societal yard stick, however impossible it may be. That is what judges what is boring or not. We can adjust to it, but there is a physical limit to everyones body and mental processes are EXTREMELY taxing on the brain and eventually everyone breaks no matter how much brain tissue they have. We have individual versions of boring and the societal. Once again do you choose isolation, or conforming? That is the hardest choice to make.

    I have yet to find a way around this decision. I'm doing my best to find the middle ground in between.

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