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  1. #31
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Hi Eric,

    astrology has been dumbed down for the masses, traditional astrology as would be used by the type of astrologer actively using humours/temprament type would take a similar approach as follows:

    Ascendant sign
    Moon sign
    Sun sign
    Planetary signs (Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn)
    possibly something calle dhte hyleg.

    Each of the above would be scored vis a vis their weight for that individual chart, scoring is also based on planetary location in relation to the Sun and diurinal and nocternal strenght of each of the planets.

    In modern astrology I am 45:45 Water: Earth, with a 5% fire and no air.
    Using the traditional approach I have stronger melancoly and secondary Plegmatic.

    Humours to Temprament types is well documented, used in ancient medicine dating back to galens day, as with the Elements - all three things align.

    As for what modern spin is used by psycologists trying to reinvenet galens methods and retrofit/fudge around their own questionable application of learning, that is a different animal. Jung applied some of the astrological learning directly and sometimes badly.

    From an astrological perspective there are 3 or 4 methods of bucketing people used:
    Quadruplicity
    Triplicities (being the elements - most relate to humours/temprment types)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triplicity
    Fire - Aries, Leo, and Sagittarius - hot, dry; ardent
    Earth - Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn - cold, dry; heavy
    Air - Gemini, Libra, and Aquarius - hot, wet; light
    Water - Cancer, Scorpio, and Pisces - cold, wet; soft


    Quadruplcity is a different cateogorisiation indicating the impact of signs:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_sign

    Cardinal - starters/initiators
    Fixed - stablisers/determined, persistant
    Mutible - flexible servicing

    Interesting that Mutible dominant people were considered not so good in ancient times - as in fickle, inconstant, where as now being flexible is considered a good thing. I don't know the psycological profiling tool but Quads look very like the whole Starter/Initiator and completer finishers etc etc. So again reinventing what was used for many centuries.


    When you start overlaying quaruplicies and triplicities togehter you get an all together more complex picture.

    The longer in the tooth I get the more I think that modern thinking is simply rebranding of something ancient, but then I have a typical NT love of pulling out history and respinning

    As for the jump between temprament and MBTI - I fear the reason there is so many questions is because of a double whammy in bad articulating/dumbign down. In astrology water has been dumbed down to emotions, and that is not true, it is much deeper, it has a stronger reasonance with Intuition than it does with emotion. All people have emotions they are just expressed differently, hence MBTI/PUII giving emo to one specific group seems dumbing down the whole subject of emo.

    My point is that I can see from astrology that Choleric/Fire really does related well to NF's desire to champaing and soap box for specific things. It maes sence. And NT's being water born creaters also makes sense however that ones is a lot more difficult to articulate.

  2. #32
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    There was a bed and breakfast we used to stay at in summer vacations, and they had this big thick book on astrology that had all the triplicities and quadruplicities. Even though I avoid astrology, I thought it was interesting because of all those symmetries.
    For the first time, I could understand why the somewhat popular funk group Earth, Wind & Fire omitted water. Lead singer Maurice White was a Sagittarius, and that sign is only under those three.
    (I don't remember what that book was, but I remember it being white with blue and gold imagery).

    But no, modern temperament theory is not based on that stuff. Not signs, not elements and of course, not humors. None of that stuff really determines personality, though they surmised that it did back then. It's just a measurement of expressive and responsiveness (loosely corresponding to hot/cold and moist/dry), and using the old names.

    I would say that both NT and NF can be "fiery", as the quotes show. It's just the the NT will have a more critical goal-oriented motive behind it, while for the NF, it will ultimately be more altruistic in trying to help the human cause. It seem the former is really what the Choleric in its original conception was about, while the latter is tied more to the Phlegmatic's peace-loving diplomacy. (Or the unknown Supine's "service" to others). I would say NT is "dry", NF is "moist".
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  3. #33
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    LOL I'm not big on the moist dry etc, none of these things determine character they simply discribe it. The astrological planets don't even determin carachter, they describe the resources available to the individual to make with what they will.

    Likely perhaps that the book you picked up MIGHT be Linda Goodman's Sun Signs. Not to be confused with star signs, which may blow your mind vis a vis the sheer leve of weirdness and cookie topics covered (includign a chapter on phisical imortality). If not that one, it could be 000 of other coffee table boos on the subject some of which are really dumbed down for the masses and actually produce wrong information.

    Lots of these occultist subject fuse togeth with common theories, which also fuse together with higher level older religions like Kabalisim and Dulisim etc. Although I'm not up on either.

    Phelgmatics are ultimately calm, deal well in a crisis.

    The more one comapres these systems the more fudging you see with the more modern stuff. Intuition is a variable which would related to water, which acrossing to MBTI is shared with the NF, but I wonder if NF and NT's intuition works differently.

    I once did a MBTI profile day with a team of 30 collegues, out of us all, there was only two NxP one F one T, we were asked to throw some thoughts on paper about the J types - ours was a largely scribbled bubble map of different things, there was a ranked list in beautiful handwiting etc.

    As for Earth Wind and Fire, the missing element is always over compensated for in some way. I am a person with no air in my chart (so pretty heavy and lacking a real sense of casual), I over compensate my communications, in almost every way. I wonder how the said group over compensated for their lack of water.... hmmm interesting

  4. #34
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, that wasn't the book. It was more like an encyclopedia of astrology or something.

    The idea of compensating for the missing element is interesting, but then I don't believe in the elements (in their own right), and then the group had several members, and they may have been of water signs.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

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