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  1. #11
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't see how a model where the same trait means something different depending on the existence of other traits can possibly be sound. It just looks like a case of massaging definitions to force the model to fit. Then when you start to blend 'humours' (essentially meaningless other than as labels for collections of traits), the whole thing starts to lose any kind of coherence as a typology.
    What is the appeal of this model, for you?
    It seems pretty simple to me, though I started out from the perspective of expressiveness and responsiveness, and in these different areas of interaction (social, action, and actually, a third one dealing with deeper personaly relations).

    We can tend to approach others, or want others to approach us socially; and we can tend to act quickly or slowly in leadership and responsibilities, or go along with or have a stricter criteria as to the actions of others we will accept.
    These can be put together into what are known as temperaments. Different combinations will shape cognitive preferences. Each model looks at it at a different angle.
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  2. #12
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    I don't think Choleric is right for Rationals. I'm Choleric, lol. (Well ...Choleric/Melancholy) Phlegmatic makes more sense because you guys, in your best form, you are externally calm and eternally reasonable.

    At any rate, they're both theories - and the humours theory is so much more sketchy and older than dirt - so there's no way it's "proven."

  3. #13
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Didn't you do at least one of the Galen tests, perhaps the Inclusion/Control/Affection one?
    I had already been thinking of checking, because I saw that you seemed to be reconsidering your type again recently, and that model comes in handy as a good clue for those uncertain of their type.
    But I didn't remember you being Choleric. Greed was the ENFP Choleric, and it turns out he is very inbetween on both systems.

    But anyway, the conative model is not about "calmness". That's more the affective model (Interaction Styles), and it all got mixed up by people like Keirsey not realizing that there were two different "areas" of temperament, and that Galen, Fromm and others were more affective, while Plato (who he draws more from), Adickes, Spränger and Kretschmer were likely more conative.

    Clearly, by the old factors of response delay and response sustain, or aggressiveness and people/task focus, the Rational (as we see in these descriptions) is aggressive and task focused, or hot/dry ("fire") and this is what defined Choleric, even though he might be outwardly "cold" and "calm" about it (which in the area of action are also very Choleric traits).

    Edit:
    OK,I found it, and you had
    Inclusion Phlegmatic-Sanguine

    Control either Phlegmatic-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic

    Affection one of the Sanguines

    I don't know if you got Choleric on one of the other tests, but I hold this one as the most accurate, because of the fact that it sorts out the different areas.

    I briefly commented on the fact that this was an example of NF's coming out in the Phlegmatic areas of the grid.
    Otherwise, it seemed to fit close enough to ENFP.
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  4. #14
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Well I'm classified as a Melancholic-Phlegmatic.....and I am far from being a choleric.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Well, which test was that on? As I explained, if you take tests that just list the temperaments by strengths and do not sort out the social vs leadership areas, then it is possible that the Phlegmatic will temper the Choleric into a Melancholic. Melancholic and Choleric are similar in many ways; just that one is more expressive than the other, and this seems to get diminished when mixed with Phlegmatic.

    In other words, if you picked "traits" out of a list, the Choleric traits will include a lot of socially agressive stuff you might not identify with, because of the phlegmatic Interaction Style. Yet if you identify with all that NT stuff I quoted, those are also Choleric traits that might be skimped over on those traits lists.

    On LaHaye's temperament traits chart in his book, I got PhlegMel too. On Oneishy, I got MelChlor. Those sorts of tests just don't sort it out right.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Here's a quote I forgot:
    Quote Originally Posted by PUMII p.274
    From early on NT children seem calm and contemplative, leading an observer to suppose them without strong desires. But the calm exterior conceals a yearning for achievement that all too often can turn into obsession.
    As is the case with adult Rationals, all else becomes unimportant to these children once in the pursuit of achievement, once caught in the grip of accomplishing some goal. Unfortualately, this obsessiveness can make NT kids demand more of themselves than they can ddeliver, so that tension builds as they struggle to rid themselves of error.
    Once calm and focused, they now become overly tense and high-strung, impatient with everything and everyone around them.
    Berens had also mentioned "obsesses" as part of an NT's stress.

    All of this is definitely classic Choleric behavior. Also, the "Self-respect in autonomy" he mentions (p.185-6) as well. (In Will Schutz's FIRO, the Choleric scores are called "autocrat").

    This makes it funny, as he (in Portraits of Temperament), rationalized making NF Choleric based on the notion that they had a tendency to "occasionally fly into fits of rage, despite their normally placid, harmonious nature". Yet, we see that the NTs have their own version of this "irascibility" as well. And it fits in with the rest of their pragmatic, task-focused behavior, where for NF's, it's almost being admitted as basically out of character!
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  7. #17
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    People who are never choleric frighten me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #18
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I agree that Phlegmatic is wrong for Rationals, but so is Choleric. Cholerics are extroverted. (Heat = Extroversion, so sanguines are also Extroverts, which means the introverted (cold) types are the other 2). You seem to admit this yourself when you say "Here, we clearly see a very energized temperament!"

    Actually, the 2 systems are describing different traits so they can't be effectively mapped to each other - that was Keirsey's mistake.

    Galen's types are created by 2 dichotomies (hot v cold, dry v wet) not the 3/4 of Jung/MBTI.
    They more closely match Eysenck's scales of Extroversion and Neuroticism. (An observation he made himself.)

    I could also see a mapping to DiSC - which essentially is E/I + T/F
    There is no room for the N/S dichotomy. Therefore, there is no mapping to NT.

    I see it like this: Choleric = Extroverted Thinkers (as characterised by the ETJs), Sanguine = Extroverted Feelers, Melancholic = Introverted Thinkers, Phlegmatic = Introverted Feelers, or, in the 5 temperament system, Supine = Introverted Feelers and Phlegmatics are balanced/ambiverts.

    ETA. I don't think the mapping of test results proves/disproves anything, since the tests are built on the test maker's assumptions about what the categories mean.

    I find the original associations, not with bodily "humours" but the notion of temperamental or constitutional "imbalance" more interesting lately. Galen originally classified 9 types (8 types of imbalance + one 'ideal'), but we are only usually familiar with 4 or 5. His idea was that any imbalance was suboptimal, and the goal of medicine was to try to reestablish balance in the organism.

    I like this approach. Recently, I've been thinking about which systems might be "out of balance" when it comes to type characteristics. For example, is introversion created by an imbalance between the sympathetic and the parasympathetic parts of the autonomic nervous system? This could be a sound biological basis for the characteristic sensitivity of introverts, and recalls Galen's mind/body connection.
    Original dichotomy:
    The search for the optimal activity level of the cortex brings about introversion and extraversion.
    Introversion is an attempt to decrease the activity level of the cortex. Extraversion is an attempt to increase it.
    Both parties search to gain the optimal level.

    The dichotomy of the autonomous nervous system follows.
    It is the second dichotomy.

  9. #19
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yes, that would be for E/I, which figures in the affective temperaments known as the Interaction Styles. In the conative model (Keirsey's groups), extraversion/introversion is basically replaced by pragmatism/cooperativeness. I'm not sure if that works the same way neurologically, but it is possible.
    Pragmatism is the quickness to take action, and it would be an attempt to create activity, while cooperativeness would be an attempt to decrease it.

    This would make temperament (on both levels) the root of personality, rather than the functions! It goes along with the notion that E/I and J/P are more primal in a childs's development!
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  10. #20
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Just found some more evidence, on the flipside, showing the NF is not Choleric (figured I might as well throw this here and not make a new thread in the NF forums, since it is not as extensive as the NT evidences).

    PUMII p316: Idealists almost never take forefront as political or military leaders.
    (So this is definitlely NOT the conative analogue of "Initiator" or "In Charge".)

    "They are first and foremost people-oriented". (Phlegmatic & Sanguine, [and Supine]=People oriented. Choleric and Melancholic=task oriented).

    317
    "They can subordinate their own wants and needs to the wants and needs of others, sometime to the degree that the wants and needs of others almost erase those they hold themselves."

    318
    Need to be replenished by expressions of recognition and approval (=Supine)

    Value words of appreciation; Need acknowledgment from leaders, colleagues and subordinates.

    May find themselves torn between the needs of their subordinates and requests of superiors, since they are so sensitive to helping those below them and pleasing those above them.

    So in tune with the feelings of others that they are vulnerable to finding themselves trying to please all of the people all of the time.

    All of this fits APS "Supine" descriptions. They have "a servant's heart".
    This is just not a Choleric, who is aggressive, independent and focused on his own goals.

    A couple more points for NT's:
    321: ENTJ is a "leader of leaders". This is, the Initiator Rational, not the ENFJ Initiator Idealist.

    325ff, Rationals are clearly the ones into leadership, and again, the conative counterpart to the affective Initiator role (EST/ENJ).
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