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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Thank you for all your insights. This has been very helpful. I think I will try just completely ignoring the grumpy comments, because it may in fact be his way of trying to control me or push my buttons in some way (since he knows how irritating it is to me).
    I wouldn't assume this is it actually

    I'm a 20yr old with an INFJ mother and one of the biggest misunderstandings she had with me was that I am arrogant, grumpy, trying to be mean, complain etc etc

    In actual fact there is no emotional intent behind 95% of what I say... so when my mother constantly got offended and/or involked a emotional response to my comments it was extreamly frustrating, almost as bad as having a language barrier

    I mean I don't know for sure with this child but when it was me as a kid it was very rare and unusual for me to push someones buttons or control someone on purpose, the comments I make is to find the absolute truth, even if this comes across as arguementive, cause a lot of the time thats what it takes to get the whole truth out of some people

    It's kinda funny cause I can picture the dentist example cause its a perfect example of about every argument I've had with my mother, he is seeking truth and with his questioning/complaining you find that offensive when its not meant to be and it involks an emotional response rather than more logical detail, so the INTx proceeds again and again (argues more) to nut out the logic flaws etc but the INFJ just gets more and more pissed off completely confusing the INTx

    Over the years I've had interesting talks with my mother and there is a definite bond with the N but there is also a huge hole that can seem to never be filled by the value/emotions difference

    Often I saw her as harsh, unnessisary, mean and irrelevant and she probably saw me as arrogant, cold and having zero emotions when its unlikley any of this is true, its just the emotional barrier between the 2 types

  2. #32
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Send him to summer camp at a Romanian orphanage. You'll find a drastic reduction in his whining about boredom and food.
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  3. #33
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    It's kinda funny cause I can picture the dentist example cause its a perfect example of about every argument I've had with my mother, he is seeking truth and with his questioning/complaining you find that offensive when its not meant to be and it involks an emotional response rather than more logical detail, so the INTx proceeds again and again (argues more) to nut out the logic flaws etc but the INFJ just gets more and more pissed off completely confusing the INTx
    +10000000

    I've seen this play out soooo many times with xNFJs - both with me (ENTP) and my INTP.
    So often I think: can you just calm the hell down and answer the question, please? in detail???? can you just answer specifically what I asked without adding drama to it?

    That being said, I find that introverts of all types can come off as extremely arrogant because it seems like they sit there in judgment and condemnation because they don't usually have back-and-forth conversations in real time. Which is why INTPs can come off as mopey and sullen, and INFJs can come off as depressive and melodramatic. This doesn't mean that any of you actually are these things, I'm just saying that if the mom sees the INTP a certain way, there's a strong possibility that he sees her the other way - in which case, he doesn't go out of his way to explain things because he may feel that it falls on deaf ears or lead to really weird conclusions.

  4. #34
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I still think for most kids, nine years old is old enough to google something if you really want to know about it. I don't think most parents, especially N parents have a big problem with explaining to their kids why they need them to do something or helping them find the resources they need to learn about something if they don't have enough details themselves. This is why I think the kid is probably being difficult rather than honestly inquiring why he's being asked to cooperate.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #35
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Right, but if someone is asserting that you must do something and so you ask why, but are then told to look it up for yourself, then that kind of negates the whole thing. Most kids won't want to look it up because they didn't even care in the first place...

    I can't imagine that one child bothers to hold a grudge for that long about every single thing - totally unprovoked - just to be difficult. Children need discipline and guidance, but either way, communication is a 2 way street.

  6. #36
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The way I look at it is if you explain to them that bacteria and plaque build up on teeth and it causes them to rot and that is why the teeth need cleaned and they need more detailed information, then one of us is going to have to look it up and I'm not the one that wants to know, so there isn't much reason for me to look it up. I am willing to help them spell stuff if they don't know how to spell it and I'm willing to explain what a particular term means, but if they are unwilling to read something on wiki when they are able, they don't really want to know, they just want to give me a hard time and get out of doing what I've asked them to do.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    I'm asking NT's for advice about my son.

    He is an INTx. He is grumpy and complains about absolutely EVERYTHING! He doesn't like anything our family does for activities, but he gets bored if we just stay at home. He doesn't like anything we eat for food, but when I ask him what he wants me to buy at the grocery store, he can't think of any ideas.

    Going out for ice cream? Ice cream makes my teeth hurt! Not going out for ice cream? We never get to eat ice cream!

    Going to a football game? Football is boring! Staying at home. Home is boring! Going to a movie? That movie looks like it will be boring! Going to the library? I hate reading! Books are boring! Going swimming? We went swimming last week! Going on vacation? I hate riding in the car!

    My question is...is this a natural personality trait, a symptom or depression or just a bad attitude?


    Advice?
    Take him to a doctor. You need to rule out clinical depression.
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  8. #38
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I still think for most kids, nine years old is old enough to google something if you really want to know about it. I don't think most parents, especially N parents have a big problem with explaining to their kids why they need them to do something or helping them find the resources they need to learn about something if they don't have enough details themselves. This is why I think the kid is probably being difficult rather than honestly inquiring why he's being asked to cooperate.
    I agree with this. A lot of times all the questions are just a stall tactic. Genuine curiosity is great, and encouraged. But prolonging the "whys," a lot of the time, is just a tactic to either get out of it or annoy the parent. If the kid really wants to know why, he can google it. If it he doesn't, he can shut up and go to the dentist. If the parent gives a reasonable explanation and the kid keeps digging, he needs to realize he can find more in-depth information on his own, anyway. An NT doesn't need to be spoonfed. I think this is more a power struggle issue or a need for attention.
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  9. #39
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    I agree with this. A lot of times all the questions are just a stall tactic. Genuine curiosity is great, and encouraged. But prolonging the "whys," a lot of the time, is just a tactic to either get out of it or annoy the parent. If the kid really wants to know why, he can google it. If it he doesn't, he can shut up and go to the dentist. If the parent gives a reasonable explanation and the kid keeps digging, he needs to realize he can find more in-depth information on his own, anyway. An NT doesn't need to be spoonfed. I think this is more a power struggle issue or a need for attention.
    I agree with you that we don't need to be spoonfed. What I'm saying is that there comes a time when a parent has to give more than the bare minimum, because he's 9 now and his needs are greater. Saying simply that "the dentist removes plaque so your teeth don't rot, get in the car" doesn't exactly make me feel all warm and gooey toward you. Sure, I'll get in the car because I have no choice but I don't have to smile about it - and that's the issue, his attitude.

    And yes, I am perfectly capable of looking something up, but if you want me to do something at least present it in an interesting or informative way. And then I'll take it from there.

    I agree that kids need to just learn to respect their parents and do as they are told. But I also don't think that you can base what's "good enough" for one child on what's "good enough" for the others, or put the burden on the 9 year old to behave in a mature and responsible way.

    From my own experience: many times growing up, I tried to have a conversation with my mother and she would lose her temper or patience so fast because she took it as me questioning her, rather than me trying to learn from her. If we were in the car, for instance, there was no encyclopedia there with me (the days before google, which children don't always - and shouldn't - have 100% access to, even in this day and age) so there was no real satisfaction. I didn't ever feel fulfilled. SP children usually yearn for some type of athletic bonding, like throwing the football around. NT kids look for something a bit different, for the most part. I never felt a close bond to my parents because they never took the time to foster that bond in a way that was relatable to me.

    In those situations, I really learned that I'm on my own - that's what set the stage for the fierce autonomy that I have now. Yeah, I probably could go and figure it out when I got home but more than likely I would be so resentful at being shut down so harshly that I just ended up quiet and annoyed, counting the days until I could move out - and *that's* what I spent my time researching.

  10. #40

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    I agree that kids need to just learn to respect their parents and do as they are told. But I also don't think that you can base what's "good enough" for one child on what's "good enough" for the others, or put the burden on the 9 year old to behave in a mature and responsible way.

    In my humble opinion- respect isn't learnt, it's earned- and you earn a child's respect by being fair and consistent. I've met 9 year olds who behave in mature and responsible ways- not because anybody put such a "burden" on them, but because they were raised in conditions and environments where being mature and responsible was simply the natural order of things.
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