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  1. #21
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I remember reacting this way from time to time as a child, and I was an only child, with lots of alone time and plenty of peace and quiet. The thing that usually snapped me out of it was to become engaged in something interesting. Even if I had to interrupt it, or follow it with something (to me) illogical and unappealing, that became lost in the noise, as I would look forward to returning to my project/activity.

  2. #22
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    I think that with NT children, (and adults) it takes some reminding that there will be times that they have to just do things that don't make any sense. Life still happens and their presence is still needed.
    I agree that NTs (and all children, really) need to learn to follow instructions "just because" sometimes. Often a parent's rule is not up for debate and you shouldn't waiver on that.

    They need to know that they are loved and wanted despite their ambivalence towards it.
    Um... Ok, I guess.
    I get what you are saying, but I can't identify.

    I believe that deep down, NT's struggle with a deep frustration about "irrationality", and how it is difficult to not be able to categorize things that have no logical basis.
    There is a lot of truth to that. I find hypocrisy and irrational rules maddening.

    Also, they struggle with basically avoiding things that will trigger an emotional response to it, because they find their feelings hard to accept and handle. Even the positive ones, appreciation of "moments" being one of them.
    You've lost me here. I've never found my feelings hard to accept, I find them hard to identify. They just aren't as important in the grand scheme of things, so I don't spend much time thinking about them.

    A bit of attitudal distance with a "wink" and a little smile, does wonders when you are dealing with their stubbornness.
    This is the fastest way to invoke my wrath. I know when I'm being patronized and I will punish you for it.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Quiet's Avatar
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    Ok , I want to clarify some things here that maybe I didn't clearly portray like I had meant to.

    Firstly, I should state that I really only know one INTJ child and a couple of INTJ adults. From what I have observed, an INTJ doesn't really outwardly express how they feel about displays of love shown to them. At times, it's because they just need to process it and feel it within themselves. They may not be in the mood to receive it if they are focusing on their mental energies elsewhere. I think it has to do with being an introvert as well. From the INTJ's I have known, they want to express it, but feel at a loss to make that actual move of going up to someone and either using words or gestures. (I think this also covers what I was saying about avoiding things that will invoke an emotional response or trigger if they do not feel prepared). I think receiving and giving positive affirmations can be quite awkward for them.

    The wink and a little smile does not mean "patronizing", but rather acknowledging that they may not want to be probed as to why they don't want to talk about something or have to do something. But rather a light and casual way of dealing with them. These are the things that I have noticed that explain and work for my INTJ father, and he is a particularly stubborn and standoffish type of INTJ. Anyway, I hope that explained my last posts more clearly.
    "What's Taters, Precious?" --- Gollum.

    "Bring your pretty face, to my axe". --- Gimly.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
    I think receiving and giving positive affirmations can be quite awkward for them.
    Indeed.

  5. #25
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I wonder...is that due to the fact that you're expected to recipcrocate or are you just wondering why someone does that?

    Coz if the former...with T's I tend to wink and move on, not expecting a thing and therefore not putting any pressure, whereas the latter is just a basic 'I'm in a good mood and sharing it with you/ I like you (in a non romantic way)' kinda thing
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I dislike to say something is good just because someone wants me to say it. If a work is not good enough or my interest in it is not sufficient to evoke a rather strong response, I naturally have no response to it. Since I know that positive affirmation is desired (an ESFP friend of mine is especially eager), I either fake it (which is kind but inconvenient) or, more often, ask some detail question to appear interested (which feels better and also produces more information for the evaluation). When someone gives me positive affirmation, it is usually because they like me, not because they know that the work they are praising is indeed good. I once received compliments from all school for a speech I gave, but I remember only four people's words - the rest were merely too easily blinded.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Thank you for all your insights. This has been very helpful. I think I will try just completely ignoring the grumpy comments, because it may in fact be his way of trying to control me or push my buttons in some way (since he knows how irritating it is to me).

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    He is an INTx. He is grumpy and complains about absolutely EVERYTHING! He doesn't like anything our family does for activities, but he gets bored if we just stay at home. He doesn't like anything we eat for food, but when I ask him what he wants me to buy at the grocery store, he can't think of any ideas.
    First mistake: everything is spontaneous, I do have a need to be warned about things before you arrive, he sounds IxTJ and is disturbed because he isn't being told ahead of schedule what is happening so he can form a strong opinion. Yes we can be anal that way, we need time to ponder what we want, a lot of it (hence the introvertedness!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Going out for ice cream? Ice cream makes my teeth hurt! Not going out for ice cream? We never get to eat ice cream!

    Going to a football game? Football is boring! Staying at home. Home is boring! Going to a movie? That movie looks like it will be boring! Going to the library? I hate reading! Books are boring! Going swimming? We went swimming last week! Going on vacation? I hate riding in the car!
    Sounds like he needs input; there is nothing more bored than an IxTJ with no intellectual material to chomp on; he is also suffering from the lack of forewarning. Going to see a movie? Tell him before 'We might go see a movie today, go see what you might like to see so we can schedule it accordingly'. Making these sorts of decisions are where we feel comfortable and natural, we will criticise others choices. You are complaining because it is your natural tendancy to strive for group empathy, it is his natural tendancy to strive for individual choice, which he feels he is not allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    My question is...is this a natural personality trait, a symptom or depression or just a bad attitude?
    Personality trait regarding making decisions and individual choice. We don't want to do things with people, we want to do things which define us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Is there any way to cheer him up or make him more pleasant? I think life is going to be very hard on him if he continues to be this negative, because his future employers, girlfriends, friends, etc. are not going to respond well to it.
    Compromise, the offer is, 'we are going to do this as a family, but as reward you can have x time to do with as you please and what you please'. Also make sure this is planned out and has good agreement. Don't go back on your word or the trust will break down and he'll get cranky about the whole process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    I should note that he has a very nice life. He has a loving family with two parents who love him and love each other. He is well provided for (meals, house, toys, etc.). He is in a very positive community where he is safe. He is not being bullied or anything that would cause him emotional or physical harm.
    That's not especially important to an individual choice focused individual, he doesn't yet see the value of group convenience because he is too young to have developed those ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    Also, we have several children and the rest are all sunny and pleasant, so I don't think it has anything to do with our parenting.
    It's not. Don't worry, mum had two of us she learned to just leave us to our own devices. Truth be told we sort ourselves out and any outside intervention will face massive complaints from us even now as adults and yes, we know exactly how to study how our reactions affect people and therefore responding accordingly when people annoy us like your son is doing to you. Also, no neither of us are mass murders or sociopaths can both hold down well paid jobs. There is nothing particularly unusual in your sons behaviour, he simply requires to choose his input and to be given the time to do so.

    Basically don't expect to spend even more than a minority of your day dragging your son into 'family things' he won't accept that or will give off the angry gestures if he feels imposed upon.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily flower View Post
    I'm asking NT's for advice about my son.

    He is an INTx. He is grumpy and complains about absolutely EVERYTHING! He doesn't like anything our family does for activities, but he gets bored if we just stay at home. He doesn't like anything we eat for food, but when I ask him what he wants me to buy at the grocery store, he can't think of any ideas.

    Going out for ice cream? Ice cream makes my teeth hurt! Not going out for ice cream? We never get to eat ice cream!

    Going to a football game? Football is boring! Staying at home. Home is boring! Going to a movie? That movie looks like it will be boring! Going to the library? I hate reading! Books are boring! Going swimming? We went swimming last week! Going on vacation? I hate riding in the car!

    Advice?
    My personal opinion is... that your problem has nothing to do with his personality type, and everything to do with the fact that he has realised (perhaps subconsciously) that he has power over you. I know of guys who date girls like this, and the common factor is almost always "doormat syndrome", where they do everything to please them, and only get manipulated and disrespected for it.

    I think you need to be a bit more hard on him (firm, not aggressive or harsh). Ask him what he wants, and give it to him- nothing more, nothing less. If he can't decide, tell him that a decision must be made, and that if he's not going to make it then you're going to make it on his behalf. If he whines and gets upset with your choice, let him know clearly and firmly that you had already told him the rules, and he didn't follow them. If he STILL whines, punish him calmly, and let him know that you will not tolerate this sort of behaviour from him any more.

    Don't give in. If he asks for one thing, and then demands another, give him what he asked for the first time- and leave it at that. For example, if he doesn't want to go on the vacation, find an alternative- maybe leave him at a friend's place. If he's happy that way, so be it. If he calls you and complains, say that you gave him what he wanted, and that's that. You're not being harsh- you're being consistent with what you say and what you do.

    I'm not a parent, though, so you might want to laugh at me and go "what does this kid know about raising kids?" and I wouldn't blame you.

    Good luck! \(n_n)/
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Quiet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    My personal opinion is... that your problem has nothing to do with his personality type, and everything to do with the fact that he has realised (perhaps subconsciously) that he has power over you. I know of guys who date girls like this, and the common factor is almost always "doormat syndrome", where they do everything to please them, and only get manipulated and disrespected for it.

    I think you need to be a bit more hard on him (firm, not aggressive or harsh). Ask him what he wants, and give it to him- nothing more, nothing less. If he can't decide, tell him that a decision must be made, and that if he's not going to make it then you're going to make it on his behalf. If he whines and gets upset with your choice, let him know clearly and firmly that you had already told him the rules, and he didn't follow them. If he STILL whines, punish him calmly, and let him know that you will not tolerate this sort of behaviour from him any more.

    Don't give in. If he asks for one thing, and then demands another, give him what he asked for the first time- and leave it at that. For example, if he doesn't want to go on the vacation, find an alternative- maybe leave him at a friend's place. If he's happy that way, so be it. If he calls you and complains, say that you gave him what he wanted, and that's that. You're not being harsh- you're being consistent with what you say and what you do.

    I'm not a parent, though, so you might want to laugh at me and go "what does this kid know about raising kids?" and I wouldn't blame you.

    Good luck! \(n_n)/
    Don't kid yourself!!

    I'm a parent of two, and I still found myself filing away your sensible suggestions to try for myself. I believe my oldest might be an ENFP and my youngest is possibly an INFJ, and I can relate to the control and power struggles I often experience with my oldest ENFP. So thank you, and I'm sure that with your insights, you'll make a great parent yourself someday if you decide to have children of your own.
    "What's Taters, Precious?" --- Gollum.

    "Bring your pretty face, to my axe". --- Gimly.

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