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  1. #41
    ThatGirl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Okay, I see what you're saying. I ran across this same theme with an ENTP I was getting to know recently, but it was hard for me to get exactly where he was coming from. He'd say the same things you are saying--that sometimes people take him too seriously, and sometimes he just wants to put things out there, that he doesn't necessarily believe or subscribe to himself.

    From my perspective in trying to meet him halfway, I was never offended at anything he said. So it wasn't a values or feelings-type reaction. It was just that sometimes he would say some pretty outlandish things, but they didn't read as though he thought they were outlandish. The presentation was often the same as the stuff that he'd given a lot of thought to. So it was very hard for me to tell the difference between him saying stuff just to get a reaction or see what I had to say about it, and him sharing a perspective that was pretty concrete in his values system. So naturally, one wants to err on the side of taking someone's ideas seriously as a sign of respect.

    Occasionally he would say stuff like "I don't know if I believe any of that or not," and then I'd realize that was a not-serious time. But even at those times, I was unsure what he wanted my reaction to be. Especially because as an INTP, I usually run my wild Ne ideas through Ti before I release them into the environment. And ENFP type unrestrained Ne is pretty easily recognizable as being silly. This wasn't, so much. If I'd gotten a clear idea of the kind of discussion he wanted, maybe I could have played in that world, but I never got a picture of that. The serious stuff looked a lot like the not-serious stuff. But he did restate pretty often the idea that people misunderstand him, and only a few people "get" him naturally, and that people shouldn't take him seriously. I wanted to understand him, but didn't know how.

    Can you maybe tell what an optimal reaction would look like, or maybe give an example of when the conversation went wrong and what you had hoped for?
    Did he have a sarcastic sense of humor? Because I used to do this.

    It seemed like no one could distinguish between my 'crazy' ideas, and what I personally thought was so absurd, no one could possibly think that was serious....

    Truth: You know, if you understand the basic elements of what a black hole emits, and tie that into what it absorbs, then calculate a dynamic where one exists without the other....you can anticipate more dimensional dynamics?

    Joke: No, seriously just put a fucking parachute on the plane itself!


    Anyway.

  2. #42
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Can you maybe tell what an optimal reaction would look like, or maybe give an example of when the conversation went wrong and what you had hoped for?
    I'm not sure there's an optimal reaction, but what I would like to see is elaboration, either on their part, or a request to do so on my part instead of an instant emotional reaction to what I said. I say something, and all I get is, "WHAT?!" or a rise out of the person that heard it that's either expressed by silence or a long lecture on why I'm wrong, which doesn't make sense because I'm not even thinking in terms of right or wrong points of view.

    Again, I could just forget even trying to do this with my friends and go back to the mode everyone loves me in by constantly being witty without any depth, but I swear I'll go mad with no venue to express my curiosity.

    Who wants to be my online penpal?*

    *Warning: content may be unsuitable for the easily offended.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    That's another way to look at it. Maybe I should just stay quiet and put my ideas to use in a nonverbal way; they might realize what they're missing when it's gone...
    Im sort of this, I basically say what I think is correct but I'm usually too passive to back up my answer -.- And it's up to them if they want to accept the logical answer or not. If I got a nickel for everytime they realize I was correct, and I just love watching them have that sinking feeling on thier face when they realized they were wrong and were being a total dick about it

    But never ever say "told you so". they'll instantly lose that embarrased feeling and you will lose respect rather than gaining it

  4. #44
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That comes across a bit like: "I do recognize the law of gravity, but it seems restraining to obey it 24/7."
    lol, yeah. i see what you mean. though the way i see it, it's more like, if i don't use logic, i'm just circumventing the human perception of definite truth and falsehood, and making my own judgment calls.

    i see it more like relativity, i suppose. or quantum states

    Quote Originally Posted by fill
    instead of an instant emotional reaction to what I said.
    i understand how it's can be potentially delusional (and quite inconveniencing) to ignore logic, but it's also counterproductive to ignore emotional context and interpersonal cues. i know you were being asked what your ideal reaction was - i don't mean to jump on it in a way it wasn't meant - but still, i feel like it's an important thing to throw out there. sometimes i think T people don't always realize the kind of F cues they're sending, which aren't always in line with what they're saying - hence what appear to be illogical reactions.

  5. #45
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i understand how it's can be potentially delusional (and quite inconveniencing) to ignore logic, but it's also counterproductive to ignore emotional context and interpersonal cues. i know you were being asked what your ideal reaction was - i don't mean to jump on it in a way it wasn't meant - but still, i feel like it's an important thing to throw out there. sometimes i think T people don't always realize the kind of F cues they're sending, which aren't always in line with what they're saying - hence what appear to be illogical reactions.
    Logic is a process. Emotional context and interpersonal cues are inputs. A truly logical process will consider these inputs along with all the others, not discounting them, but not giving them inordinate weight, either.

    As for "F-cues" sent by T-people, I expect people to listen to my words. They contain my true meaning and intent. Anything else may mislead you, and you pay it heed at your peril.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Mephistopheles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    I'm not sure there's an optimal reaction, but what I would like to see is elaboration, either on their part, or a request to do so on my part instead of an instant emotional reaction to what I said. I say something, and all I get is, "WHAT?!" or a rise out of the person that heard it that's either expressed by silence or a long lecture on why I'm wrong, which doesn't make sense because I'm not even thinking in terms of right or wrong points of view.

    Again, I could just forget even trying to do this with my friends and go back to the mode everyone loves me in by constantly being witty without any depth, but I swear I'll go mad with no venue to express my curiosity.

    Who wants to be my online penpal?*

    *Warning: content may be unsuitable for the easily offended.
    Yeah, I know that. Imho, it feels like they're seeing me just as some kind of joke/knowlegde-machine and NOTHING ELSE. Because of that, I sometimes tend to see my so-called friends not really as such.
    They say I only think in form of crunching numbers.....
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  7. #47
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Logic is a process. Emotional context and interpersonal cues are inputs. A truly logical process will consider these inputs along with all the others, not discounting them, but not giving them inordinate weight, either.

    As for "F-cues" sent by T-people, I expect people to listen to my words. They contain my true meaning and intent. Anything else may mislead you, and you pay it heed at your peril.
    ah. yeah. i see what you mean. though is it really fair to assume that everyone should listen to words alone? i guess i see a significant issue here because my dad and brother, both Ts, will tend to say something in a tone of voice that, coming from an F, would generally have unkind intent - coupled with the fact that it's probably a statement less sensitive to the needs of the individual - and you get something that comes off as both mean and cold, even though it's only intended to be neutral and objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephistopheles View Post
    Yeah, I know that. Imho, it feels like they're seeing me just as some kind of joke/knowlegde-machine and NOTHING ELSE. Because of that, I sometimes tend to see my so-called friends not really as such.
    huh. i've never experienced that perception. that sucks.

  8. #48
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I think I see the issue here. If we say this society is 'F' dominate then what will appear as depth are values. The depth of thought is considered useless because thoughts don't necessarily include actions, which I see in those who have strong values. If a thought is found to be false the person alters the thought. If a value is crossed we become stubborn and do not budge. Since the latter is harder to change than the former I think most perceive the stubborness as depth because something strong within that person must be keeping them from changing and that is more impressive I suppose. Thus logic is seen somewhat as a joke because its ever changing.

  9. #49
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I think I see the issue here. If we say this society is 'F' dominate then what will appear as depth are values. The depth of thought is considered useless because thoughts don't necessarily include actions, which I see in those who have strong values. If a thought is found to be false the person alters the thought. If a value is crossed we become stubborn and do not budge. Since the latter is harder to change than the former I think most perceive the stubborness as depth because something strong within that person must be keeping them from changing and that is more impressive I suppose. Thus logic is seen somewhat as a joke because its ever changing.
    Actually, I see logic as being concrete and unchangeable.

    When a person finally settles on a single logic, they're dedicated to it until it's disproven beyond a reasonable doubt. And there's no such thing as that degree of certainty, so...

    Feelings, though, can be changed. Values can't, but feelings that the values are based on can. So through feeling a persons' values can be redefined, but it takes a massive military deployment to unseat hard logic.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  10. #50
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Actually, I see logic as being concrete and unchangeable.

    When a person finally settles on a single logic, they're dedicated to it until it's disproven beyond a reasonable doubt. And there's no such thing as that degree of certainty, so...

    Feelings, though, can be changed. Values can't, but feelings that the values are based on can. So through feeling a persons' values can be redefined, but it takes a massive military deployment to unseat hard logic.
    Perhaps then it's the logic behind the value? This does disprove my thoughts to a degree. However, I'd say then their could be a division amongst logic that occurs here. Value Logic and Non-Value Logic. I need to think more on this though.

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