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  1. #21
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Nearly all of my friends and family rely on their feelings over logic.

    I'm one of the only voices in my group of people I'm around a lot that will serve cold reasoning, and I've found it's only appreciated a small percentage of the time, usually when I use it against somebody or something a feeling type dislikes. I end up offending people when I give my analysis on anything that they have a positive emotional attachment to (which seems like everything).

    I may be around people that aren't developed well enough to tell the difference between insults and plain old observation. I've begun to really become fond of an ENTJ I know because of how straightforward he is in saying what he thinks about something. It's refreshing.

    Has anyone else been in this position before? If so what did you do? Did you succumb to F demands and begin recurrently considering their feelings or simply not care and stayed yourself? Do you change your process of thinking for the sake of people or harness your T into doing what you do best?
    God have mercy on your soul .
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  2. #22
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    I realize this is the wrong subforum, but what about the converse? What sorts of complaints do feelers voice about being in T-dominated environments?

  3. #23
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post


    Perhaps this: Don't argue and don't criticize.

    Think of it as an opportunity. It's good practice.
    Why are we the ones who must submit even if their behaviour makes no sense?
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  4. #24
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suttree View Post
    I realize this is the wrong subforum, but what about the converse? What sorts of complaints do feelers voice about being in T-dominated environments?
    That's a good question. Probably a lot like someone who lives in a post-apocalyptic world ruled by Skynet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    I learned to purposely present my argument based on emotion, and I got what I wanted every time. Whereas before, I stubbornly presented my case with step-by-step logic and plans and got nowhere.
    Ha! I fear stepping over ethical boundaries doing this with my close friends, but I may do it then dismiss the emotional argument for the logical one, and see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coco View Post
    Do you have a concrete example of one of those situations?
    Sure.
    INXP = Jack
    ENFJ = Darin

    Darin I made really good friends with Jack last year who transferred to another university. He paid a visit to us this year; he smokes cigarettes. Darin basically harassed Jack every time he went outside to have a one, saying he shouldn't be smoking because it's bad for his health, and it got to the point where Darin told Jack he couldn't have a cigarette. I told Darin that it was Jack's choice whether or not to smoke, and that it wasn't his business to tell him what to do. Here's the argument I got from Darin: "My family member smoked for years and got lung cancer, causing my family stress for years. I can't see another person I care for go through that pain, etc." Here was my argument: "You're causing more harm than help by harassing him. He'll stop when he wants to, not when you tell him." I have an aunt that smokes cigarettes, and a grandfather that nearly died from them; I know the risks, but when it comes to something like that, the motivation to smoke comes from the inside, and only can be solved there, unless extreme external influence is applied (ie. an intervention). Darin didn't go this route in his reasoning, and acted on his emotion instead of deducing why Jack smokes of how to properly address the issue effectively to where it convinces him to stop. Suffice to say, Darin became very, very angry with me and didn't listen to my argument. (sigh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Why are we the ones who must submit even if their behaviour makes no sense?
    I'm asking the same question.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
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  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Why are we the ones who must submit even if their behaviour makes no sense?
    I'm asking the same question.
    And I as well. How did nonsense come to be the default?

  6. #26
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sherlock Holmes View Post
    Why are we the ones who must submit even if their behaviour makes no sense?
    Why do you consider yourself to be the only one submitting so far?

    (F typically changes its behavior to accommodate others already. T's are more likely to be bulls in glass houses.)

    I'm not much for F's who are over-demanding and don't try to grasp where T's are coming from; but I think we're just talking about T's here and what stuff you can control.

    ... and maybe that is part of your reason. From an efficiency POV, it's worth fitting in where you can so that you have space and collateral to burn when it's worth it to challenge status quo. mrcockburn seemed to figure it out. If you want, you can view it as "speaking French to the Frenchmen rather than getting pissed because you're speaking Swedish in France and can't seem to get anything done or have anyone understand/support you."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #27
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... and maybe that is part of your reason. From an efficiency POV, it's worth fitting in where you can so that you have space and collateral to burn when it's worth it to challenge status quo. mrcockburn seemed to figure it out. If you want, you can view it as "speaking French to the Frenchmen rather than getting pissed because you're speaking Swedish in France and can't seem to get anything done or have anyone understand/support you."
    I prefer to let the other person be themselves, and to let me be me. I am willing to try to understand F-style expression, but it is still much easier for me to respond in my own natural mode. To use your language analogy, I would learn enough French to understand the Frenchman, but I will still express myself best in English; hopefully he has learned enough English to understand me.

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I prefer to let the other person be themselves, and to let me be me. I am willing to try to understand F-style expression, but it is still much easier for me to respond in my own natural mode. To use your language analogy, I would learn enough French to understand the Frenchman, but I will still express myself best in English; hopefully he has learned enough English to understand me.
    I don't think that is how people operate at all... nor you, most likely.

    For example, there's a bunch of Spanish/Mexican immigrants in the United States right now, their numbers have been increasing for a few decades... and a huge backlash against all the Espanol being used to accommodate them. The big argument is that they came to this environment (English), so it's their job to learn English and not ours to accommodate them.

    And while the French might learn English as a practical necessity because it will increase their profits by increasing tourism, I'm pretty sure without money being involved they would not learn English if they didn't have to, if you are the one going into their country.

    Which brings me back to this:
    The thread is called "NT in an F Environment."
    If it was called "NT in a Diverse Environment," then I'd be far more likely to agree (even if we'd be going to waste much of our energy in stupid communication gaffs, which to me aren't worth my time).

    Which raises the point: Should it have been called the latter?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think that is how people operate at all... nor you, most likely.

    For example, there's a bunch of Spanish/Mexican immigrants in the United States right now, their numbers have been increasing for a few decades... and a huge backlash against all the Espanol being used to accommodate them. The big argument is that they came to this environment (English), so it's their job to learn English and not ours to accommodate them.

    And while the French might learn English as a practical necessity because it will increase their profits by increasing tourism, I'm pretty sure without money being involved they would not learn English if they didn't have to, if you are the one going into their country.
    You are wrong about this, or at least about me. Of course, I learn enough French and other languages to conduct routine business like order food in restaurants, buy train tickets, ask directions, etc. This is just efficient. And there will always be situations in which either the other person knows no English, or we choose each to speak in the foreign language, just for practice. But when I have been in a position to actually get to know someone beyond the superficialities (and I have been in these situations), we have made most headway by each of us speaking our native language, throwing in a word here and there in the other if needed. You are right about the attitudes to Spanish-speaking immigrants, but the people on the front lines of providing services to them (doctors, teachers, legal advisors) frequently do learn some Spanish to help them do their jobs better. A couple of my cousins landed jobs in a training and employment agency, largely because of their language skills. It seems a fine way to meet in the middle.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are wrong about this, or at least about me. Of course, I learn enough French and other languages to conduct routine business like order food in restaurants, buy train tickets, ask directions, etc. This is just efficient. But when I have been in a position to actually get to know someone beyond the superficialities (and I have been in these situations), we have made most headway by each of us speaking our native language, throwing in a word here and there in the other if needed. You are right about the attitudes to Spanish-speaking immigrants, but the people on the front lines of providing services to them (doctors, teachers, legal advisors) frequently do learn some Spanish to help them do their jobs better. A couple of my cousins landed jobs in a training and employment agency, largely because of their language skills. It seems a fine way to meet in the middle.
    Hey, I agree with you in terms of what is preferable, but... good luck with that if you take it to an extreme. A sizeable chunk of people see it territorially, not as a learning experience.

    In the last few years, I've actually been holding my ground in terms of not over-accommodating social niceties in my personal interactions. But you will definitely take a hit because of it. Accommodation is just another form of control, as much as aggression is. It lets you avoid conflict you might not want to waste resources on.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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