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  1. #71
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    I just went back and re-read this thread. I now understand why I have such a disconnect with the description of the traditional family. It centers around the concept of completeness of personhood. I was complete before I got married. I didn't need security because I had been secure and independent for years prior. My husband was complete and independent long before he was introduced to me. He didn't need a housekeeper because he already employed one. As two complete people our before marriage conversations answered the questions of duties and how they would be carried out. He knew it was a deal breaker to step on my independence. I knew it was a deal breaker to stand in the way of his ambition. We respected each other from before our marriage. I never feel needy, and he never feels stifled. We both have the freedom to grow and develop our skill sets for living in the way we see fit. We do not complain. We confront problems head on and adjust what is necessary and equatable.

    Traditional marriage that starts from this foundation does not go through those cultural stereo types. It is grounded in something greater than daily duties and responsibilities. This is what both of us witnessed of our own parents and grandparents on how to establish a home. It can work with the right foundation laid.

    we live in different worlds.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    we live in different worlds.
    True but not because a housekeeper was a luxury.

    It was the 70's and TV was free and the internet didn't exist. Housekeeping was $20 every two weeks. Average rent was $150. Average take home pay was $800 a month. Back then it was an available option.

    My point was he wasn't looking for someone to do what he could handle by his own means.

  3. #73
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    True but not because a housekeeper was a luxury.

    It was the 70's and TV was free and the internet didn't exist. Housekeeping was $20 every two weeks. Average rent was $150. Average take home pay was $800 a month. Back then it was an available option.

    My point was he wasn't looking for someone to do what he could handle by his own means.

    Salaries were also a lot less. No one I know had a housekeeper as a single person.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Salaries were also a lot less. No one I know had a housekeeper as a single person.
    Wages were as I stated according to the US census. The US census states the average income was $13,570. That is $1131 a month. Most employers covered insurance and retirement. After deductions $800 a month was what people were making. It was affordable.

  5. #75
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    Wages were as I stated according to the US census. The US census states the average income was $13,570. That is $1131 a month. Most employers covered insurance and retirement. After deductions $800 a month was what people were making. It was affordable.
    5% of your monthly income is affordable for a service you could do yourself? Was his income 800$ a month?

  6. #76
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think it's a little disingenuous to try to imply that a housekeeper hasn't always been a luxury.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think it's a little disingenuous to try to imply that a housekeeper hasn't always been a luxury.
    No more than daycare or a babysitter is for todays modern families. It was an affordable way to stay on top of home duties.

  8. #78
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    No more than daycare or a babysitter is for todays modern families. It was an affordable way to stay on top of home duties.
    Do you think your housekeeper had a housekeeper?

  9. #79
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    This goes right back to my earlier question of whether a home without a homemaker is unmade. Plenty of households have no adult with the primary duty to stay home and keep house, yet meals are made, laundry washed, vacuuming done, schoolwork supervised, even the garden tended. All this is possible in large part because of modern conveniences, but it also shows how a full-time homemaker in this day and age is almost obsolete. Yes, women can take advantage of a husband who is willing to support them while they do volunteer work, pursue hobbies, or even visit with friends all day. A man who pursues the same lifestyle, though, is considered a lazy freeloader. And for the vast majority of men who work for pay, you don't see them listing their career as "father and accountant/mechanic/programmer/whatever". Double standard? Of course.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #80
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    There are aspects of traditionalism whereby the woman is consumed in a relationship. Her role becomes supporting, an extension of the man and their respective progeny. Her personhood is lost. She becomes a martyr for everyone else, an object with practical applications. What have you done for me lately?

    It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

    Don't traditional men realise how egocentric they are?

    All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

    Do other women feel this way?
    I know it'll never happen to me. I have too much attitude. I'll run away and live in the woods and be a lesbian first. No propensity for it whatsoever.

    Edit: Sorry, not being sensitive. Do you feel this way meaning you feel you have to conform, or that you are against it? Are you saying this is what traditional gender roles tend to do to women? Not sure I understand the question. If you're saying that this is your criticism, then I share it.

    The traditional gender roles *as institutionalized in civilized societies came about with property becoming individually owned rather than collective. Women became property instead of persons, for a variety of reasons.

    [*As opposed to gender roles which were arguably a lot less oppressive, and in many cases not oppressive at all (or even really roles- just modes of expression and division of labor) associated with tribal societies in which property was collectively owned. This is another topic, and I think my views on this were misunderstood by some people
    in one of my threads.
    Read: I'm NOT advocating gender roles! I'm simply saying that the concept has multiple interpretations and not all of them are harmful. The one most people mean, associated with my first comments is one I despise and avoid at all costs.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Moiety View Post
    This is why I often get labelled a dick by some women. I'm just as hard with them as I am with man in social interaction. I like to incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers too, fend for themselves and take bullshit from no one.

    On the other hand, I hate nothing more than a feminist. I hate revenge mentality.
    Feminism isn't about revenge mentality. Some of them happen to have it, but it is not the same thing.
    Last edited by greenfairy; 10-09-2012 at 11:16 PM. Reason: omg left out the word NOT

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