User Tag List

First 56789 Last

Results 61 to 70 of 81

  1. #61
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    I don't understand your question. Traditional as in what I believed the OP stated, but without the lose of personhood or baggage of societal preconceived notions. I am a stay at home wife and mother.
    I was wondering what you meant by that term. OP mentions traditionalism but I didn't directly relate it to occupation. Just to the mentality that women are meant to be sidekicks or perform solely supportive functions.

    I don't think they go hand in hand.


    I also don't think modern homemaking is all that traditional of an occupation.

  2. #62
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    47

    Default

    We have a traditional Husband goes to work and Wife stays at home marriage. My occupation is Mother and Homemaker. As far as the mentality of those roles being that of a mere sidekick or supportive function I don't agree with and that is why I posted.

    In our relationship we never looked at each other separately in order to determine big and small. That mentality creates a false notion of what is important. Just as I do things that support my husband in his career and interests, he provides things that support my career and interests. We are both in a supportive role. In my thinking my pervious sentence is part of the traditional role that was left out of the 60's vision of what many women were doing as Homemakers.

    As far as modern homemaking goes, what is your definition of a modern homemaker?

  3. #63
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    We have a traditional Husband goes to work and Wife stays at home marriage. My occupation is Mother and Homemaker. As far as the mentality of those roles being that of a mere sidekick or supportive function I don't agree with and that is why I posted.

    In our relationship we never looked at each other separately in order to determine big and small. That mentality creates a false notion of what is important. Just as I do things that support my husband in his career and interests, he provides things that support my career and interests. We are both in a supportive role. In my thinking my pervious sentence is part of the traditional role that was left out of the 60's vision of what many women were doing as Homemakers.

    As far as modern homemaking goes, what is your definition of a modern homemaker?
    1. Being a mother is no more an occupation than is being a father. Both are relationships that prevail regardless of how one spends one's day or earns one's living.

    2. Being a homemaker is more like an occupation. What, then, of families in which both husband and wife have other occupations and no one is a homemaker? Are their homes essentially "unmade", or does the fact that they get along quite nicely without a designated homemaker just show that being a homemaker in modern times is more an avocation than a job?

    3. Homemaking today requires little of the creativity and ingenuity of "traditional" homemaking. Just 100 years ago, most homemakers made from scratch many items that today are generally purchased in stores. These range from bread to clothing to home remedies. Food preservation, family medical care, and cleaning techniques were much more rudimentary and time consuming. The average homemaker was more likely to be done with her day's work by 9:00 at night rather than 9:00 in the morning. The same improvements in technology that reduced the drudgery of homemaking, however, mean that the exercise of creativity is now a choice rather than necessity. The poor economy has led many families to return to some of these activities, but they remain a small minority.

    4. The essential imbalance of the "traditional" marriage is that one partner (usually the husband) has the daily and ongoing opportunity to interact with and to influence the outside world; while the other partner (usually the wife) focuses on the inner world of home and family. This cheats both her and the community. A homemaker/stay-at-home-mom (or dad) can compensate for this through volunteer activities, community groups, or even hobbies. Many do not, however, and seem as a result never to assume the full responsibilities of an adult in the community. Relying on their husbands to lead, protect, and provide for them all their lives, they never quite grow up, like Nora in "A Doll House".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i also don't think its healthy for one person to be so much at the mercy of their partners, i know it wasn't for me when i was a stay at home dad, it wasn't only bad for me but it was bad for the relationship as a whole and thus for her, and i don't think it would be any less bad the other way around. there's a realistic dependency, there's a loss of esteem, there's decreased socialization oppertunities, and none of those are good for anyone, not for the provider, not for the stay at home parent, and not for any future daughters who might see that lifestyle as their role model. but here's a key difference: i grow up in a family much more wealthy then i have being so far on my own, and with a rich boy's mentality, that most people can't afford, and while i am studying so i will be able too, its entirely possible it wont be the case forever.
    The highlighted is a good summary. The fact that many homemakers don't (want to) see these effects does not guarantee their absence. It can be hard to face the downside of your own choices, and the way you were raised to think things ought to be. It can also be hard to grow up, and stop abdicating your adult responsibilities to another.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #64
    Society
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The highlighted is a good summary. The fact that many homemakers don't (want to) see these effects does not guarantee their absence. It can be hard to face the downside of your own choices, and the way you were raised to think things ought to be. It can also be hard to grow up, and stop abdicating your adult responsibilities to another.
    see, i think its the non-highlighted and non-quoted parts that are more cirtical to the argument:
    the economical reality and pure pragmatism of the situation for those living within the minimum wage range, these are real considerations and real decisions couples have to make when your potential earnings are that close the cost of a good daycare. in light of a tough economical reality, emotional considerations for your own indeviduality often become second place. that is the reality more and more families are facing, aspecially new families formed by generation Y, the generation to pay back student loans through retail or hamburger flipping. people might be reluctent to become single income families for their children's early childhood, but increasingly more often, they don't have much of a choice, and even when they do they don't see it, because they are deep in survival mode struggling for next month and there's no way for them to look five years ahead. given that reality, its only natural for society to support and encourage rationalizations for that decision & idealize the sacrifice, essetially creating a pet on the back for the people who need it, because saying "i am a homemaker" is a lot nicer then saying "i don't make as much as it costs to not have a homemaker".


    to change the way this is going to shape our culture, you need to change the economy. right now this means a large gray area of partial employment and progression in life that people can be in rather then comitting to a all or nothing aproach. look at potential solutions like contributing to free online education that homemakers can do in their free time so that they won't forever stay homemakers, make your own toterials and share your skills, incourage entrapenurship in work from home oppertunities and help reveal scams that discourage people from following that route when you stumble upon them, support real life service exchange systems like task-rabbit when you need a job done, pay full price for self-published e-books, and once in awhile click the ad banner of someone whose providing you with content you enjoy (even if only because you enjoy to disagree with it).

    i think it is often a strength of NTs - men or women - to not succumb to cognitive disonnance in the face of emotional disonnance, treating things within larger systems as they are even when it doesn't feel the way people would want it to feel, seen the plausible explenations that other people feel so uncomortable with, that is perhaps more then anywhere else, where we have an advantage in terms of competence.

    following that, recognize the popularizing of a cultural justification for a reluctent choice for what it is so often is, and if you choose to throw your two cents at it, help create that bridge where reluctent homemakers with tough economical pressures can walk on.

  5. #65
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    47

    Default

    double post

  6. #66
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    1. Being a mother is no more an occupation than is being a father. Both are relationships that prevail regardless of how one spends one's day or earns one's living.

    2. Being a homemaker is more like an occupation. What, then, of families in which both husband and wife have other occupations and no one is a homemaker? Are their homes essentially "unmade", or does the fact that they get along quite nicely without a designated homemaker just show that being a homemaker in modern times is more an avocation than a job?

    3. Homemaking today requires little of the creativity and ingenuity of "traditional" homemaking. Just 100 years ago, most homemakers made from scratch many items that today are generally purchased in stores. These range from bread to clothing to home remedies. Food preservation, family medical care, and cleaning techniques were much more rudimentary and time consuming. The average homemaker was more likely to be done with her day's work by 9:00 at night rather than 9:00 in the morning. The same improvements in technology that reduced the drudgery of homemaking, however, mean that the exercise of creativity is now a choice rather than necessity. The poor economy has led many families to return to some of these activities, but they remain a small minority.

    4. The essential imbalance of the "traditional" marriage is that one partner (usually the husband) has the daily and ongoing opportunity to interact with and to influence the outside world; while the other partner (usually the wife) focuses on the inner world of home and family. This cheats both her and the community. A homemaker/stay-at-home-mom (or dad) can compensate for this through volunteer activities, community groups, or even hobbies. Many do not, however, and seem as a result never to assume the full responsibilities of an adult in the community. Relying on their husbands to lead, protect, and provide for them all their lives, they never quite grow up, like Nora in "A Doll House".


    The highlighted is a good summary. The fact that many homemakers don't (want to) see these effects does not guarantee their absence. It can be hard to face the downside of your own choices, and the way you were raised to think things ought to be. It can also be hard to grow up, and stop abdicating your adult responsibilities to another.

    Being a mother is also an occupation. Someone has to go to the meetings concerning and take responsibility for their children. There are duties along with the joy of relationship. My child is well into adulthood. I had to relate to many in our community on his behave, and I considered this as part of my job. Fo others today share this responsibility, of course, but it was in my job description in our traditional marriage.

    As for your modern day description, I see what younger people are trying to accomplish based on those 60's outcome of the cultural revolution. Thank you

    Number three fits more into what I do without the time constraints. With modern tools it doesn't take from 9-9 to do housework. But I see homemaking as more than just housework. I also see the realm of the home as reaching beyond my walls and into my community. My community is my home. With that said I will attempt to give you a glimpse of my day.

    The day starts at 6am (not 9) when my husband serves me coffee in bed. We visit, I fix him breakfast (Not just cereal and toast) while he is getting ready for work, and he is gone by 7:12. When child was home he was gone by 7:18. Housework is done by 9. I did a lot of volunteer work in the schools when my child was attending, everything from hearing and visual screening for local schools to teaching computer courses for grade school. The computers used in those courses were purchased through money raised through fundraising I was involved in. With a sole wage earner in my husband I was free to help not just my child, but all the children in our community, my home. With time the child became a man and those responsibilities were no longer there so I chose not to participate in empty nest syndrome and was free to explore other interests. I looked at my home and decided to give it a more mature reflection of myself. I built my own furniture, made my own linens, and turned my garage into a studio. With a studio I can now help those in my community who are not able to help themselves with those things they need. Abused women with children no longer have to worry about whether or not their child will have a bed to sleep in because I can design and build them a bed, and make sure they have linens that are better than the flimsy things one might purchase in a store. And there is so much more that goes into my day, week and year than just those things.

    None of this would be possible if my husband didn't believe that the fruits of his work (his paycheck) belonged equally to the whole family, and that what I do is as important and life sustaining as what he does.

    Many traditional women for generations saw their whole community as their home and were not trapped by an overbearing husband. They contributed to their community as technological development freed up their time. Our community would not have a good symphony, an art museum, a soup kitchen, a free clinic, outreach center, tutoring hotline, etc. if it were not for these women. They do pull their own weight in their home. I am only one of many who have seen the benefits to using their time as traditional homemakers.

    By the way all of this was said not to place guilt on those who choose a different way, but to enlighten those who had a narrow view of what a traditional role can look like.

  7. #67
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    MBTI
    ISFP
    Enneagram
    2 so/sx
    Posts
    455

    Default

    Free child care for all.

  8. #68
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    see, i think its the non-highlighted and non-quoted parts that are more cirtical to the argument:
    the economical reality and pure pragmatism of the situation for those living within the minimum wage range, these are real considerations and real decisions couples have to make when your potential earnings are that close the cost of a good daycare. in light of a tough economical reality, emotional considerations for your own indeviduality often become second place. that is the reality more and more families are facing, aspecially new families formed by generation Y, the generation to pay back student loans through retail or hamburger flipping. people might be reluctent to become single income families for their children's early childhood, but increasingly more often, they don't have much of a choice, and even when they do they don't see it, because they are deep in survival mode struggling for next month and there's no way for them to look five years ahead. given that reality, its only natural for society to support and encourage rationalizations for that decision & idealize the sacrifice, essetially creating a pet on the back for the people who need it, because saying "i am a homemaker" is a lot nicer then saying "i don't make as much as it costs to not have a homemaker".
    You are right that these practical considerations are more important in looking at why people make the choices they do. What I highlighted was the negative effects of these decisions, even when made with the best of intentions, or with little other practical alternative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    to change the way this is going to shape our culture, you need to change the economy. right now this means a large gray area of partial employment and progression in life that people can be in rather then comitting to a all or nothing aproach. look at potential solutions like contributing to free online education that homemakers can do in their free time so that they won't forever stay homemakers, make your own toterials and share your skills, incourage entrapenurship in work from home oppertunities
    These are examples of some of the things that homemakers/stay-at-home parents can do to remain engaged with the community and even a former or future profession. All good ideas, made easier now with the internet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i think it is often a strength of NTs - men or women - to not succumb to cognitive disonnance in the face of emotional disonnance, treating things within larger systems as they are even when it doesn't feel the way people would want it to feel, seen the plausible explenations that other people feel so uncomortable with, that is perhaps more then anywhere else, where we have an advantage in terms of competence.

    following that, recognize the popularizing of a cultural justification for a reluctent choice for what it is so often is, and if you choose to throw your two cents at it, help create that bridge where reluctent homemakers with tough economical pressures can walk on.
    Like the old joke about the psychologists and the lightbulb, though, the homemaker has to want to change. Yes, I think NTs are more likely both to call a spade a spade, as well as to see what else it is good for, too. This opens the door to unconventional approaches (like stay-at-home dads), and even entrepreneurship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    Being a mother is also an occupation. Someone has to go to the meetings concerning and take responsibility for their children. There are duties along with the joy of relationship. My child is well into adulthood. I had to relate to many in our community on his behave, and I considered this as part of my job. Fo others today share this responsibility, of course, but it was in my job description in our traditional marriage.o.
    So if the father, or grandmother, or some other caregiver does some of these things for a child, they are now fulfilling the occupation of "mother"? This is just ridiculous. What does the occupation "father" entail, then? In a traditional family, involvement of fathers was often minimal, and the children suffered as a result. Parents, or whoever is raising a child, take responsibility for the child's needs as part of their relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    As for your modern day description, I see what younger people are trying to accomplish based on those 60's outcome of the cultural revolution. Thank you
    Is this a feeble attempt at an insult, or an even more feeble attempt at a serious comment? Your meaning eludes me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Working On It View Post
    Number three fits more into what I do without the time constraints. With modern tools it doesn't take from 9-9 to do housework. But I see homemaking as more than just housework. I also see the realm of the home as reaching beyond my walls and into my community. My community is my home. With that said I will attempt to give you a glimpse of my day.

    None of this would be possible if my husband didn't believe that the fruits of his work (his paycheck) belonged equally to the whole family, and that what I do is as important and life sustaining as what he does.

    Many traditional women for generations saw their whole community as their home and were not trapped by an overbearing husband.
    They contributed to their community as technological development freed up their time. Our community would not have a good symphony, an art museum, a soup kitchen, a free clinic, outreach center, tutoring hotline, etc. if it were not for these women. They do pull their own weight in their home. I am only one of many who have seen the benefits to using their time as traditional homemakers.

    By the way all of this was said not to place guilt on those who choose a different way, but to enlighten those who had a narrow view of what a traditional role can look like.
    What people today consider traditional homemaking is a pale imitation of the original, for the reasons I listed in my previous message. Some of the narrowest views of such a "traditional" lifestyle come from people who are living it. The underscored are all good illustrations of communitiies expecting mothers to solve society's problems for free. The summary of your day is not important when discussing the general case. As I and Mane mentioned, it is possible for homemakers to contribute to the community, and you are obviously one who makes the effort to do so.

    It is the highlighted that is most telling. Women in a "traditional" arrangement have, traditionally, been at the mercy of their husband for resources and even permission to participate in the community and use all their gifts. The fact that some husbands were generous and encouraging did nothing for the many women whose husbands were not. Changes in the law and expanded opportunities for women have blunted the harm that an overbearing husband can do. The essential dependence of a homemaker remains, however, since as you say yourself, you could not maintain your chosen lifestyle without his support. You might argue that he could not maintain his own career without your support. While I am sure you support him well, your material support to him would be more easily replaced than his material support to you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #69
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    47

    Default

    You call what a 'grandmother' 'father' or other 'person' fulfilling tasks of the child as a 'caregiver'. 'Caregiver' is a huge area of many for pay careers. It is the 'portion' of what I did as a traditional mother that fit into an occupation. The other portion of what I did as a traditional mother fits into the actual relationship with my child.

    "Is this a feeble attempt at an insult, or an even more feeble attempt at a serious comment? Your meaning eludes me."

    No this is not intended as an insult in any way. As feeble as it may be to you I do not know how generations x, y,and z have chosen to organize their lives. I asked another for a description of the "modern traditional" wife and I believed you were answering that question in your answer. If I was mistaken then my apologies.

    If the new way of seeing the world has to do with money then I disagree that my contribution is less than my husbands. I stated clearly that he sees mine as equal to his. I do not ask permission, nor do I look for approval, because I was trusted before I entered into my traditional relationship. (Disclaimer: I am not saying others with different ideas on how to organize their lives entered into their relationships with less trust. Remember a comment about myself has nothing in my mind to do with what I think of others. I am happy they are free to make their own choices. My good and doesn't make someone's different ideas bad.) But if you need to put a dollar amount to what I do then it would be a $100 return for every $10 used of the family income. I do produce material goods, but just not for money. My family and community's life style would diminish greatly by this lack of work. The community work that many of us traditional women do is seen in lower taxes for everyone in our community. Plus moneys can now be directed toward other projects, because of the gap we fill.

    It may be a dying way of life, because of the direction the next generations desire to go. It is just as much their time in history as mine to make their mark. I just wanted to state that not all traditional roles were lived within the commonly known abuses. Many of us see the positive ways we have left our personal marks in our communities. We know we matter as more than just someone's wife and mother.

    As for traditional fathers, the ones I have known were very involved with their children. They have been portrayed negatively for generations, far more so that the traditional wife.

  10. #70
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    1w2
    Posts
    47

    Default

    I just went back and re-read this thread. I now understand why I have such a disconnect with the description of the traditional family. It centers around the concept of completeness of personhood. I was complete before I got married. I didn't need security because I had been secure and independent for years prior. My husband was complete and independent long before he was introduced to me. He didn't need a housekeeper because he already employed one. As two complete people our before marriage conversations answered the questions of duties and how they would be carried out. He knew it was a deal breaker to step on my independence. I knew it was a deal breaker to stand in the way of his ambition. We respected each other from before our marriage. I never feel needy, and he never feels stifled. We both have the freedom to grow and develop our skill sets for living in the way we see fit. We do not complain. We confront problems head on and adjust what is necessary and equatable.

    Traditional marriage that starts from this foundation does not go through those cultural stereo types. It is grounded in something greater than daily duties and responsibilities. This is what both of us witnessed of our own parents and grandparents on how to establish a home. It can work with the right foundation laid.

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] NT women and femininity *thread split*
    By Zarathustra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 144
    Last Post: 07-06-2012, 03:55 PM
  2. [NT] NT women list of shit they put up with from men.
    By ThatGirl in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 74
    Last Post: 06-12-2010, 02:10 PM
  3. NF and NT singles: Which Type of Partner do you Prefer?
    By Franz in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 04-30-2010, 09:33 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO