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  1. #31
    Senior Member Hera's Avatar
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    I feel the same. So much, in fact, that if I sat here to rant about it I'd get annoyed about bringing it up.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    There are aspects of traditionalism whereby the woman is consumed in a relationship. Her role becomes supporting, an extension of the man and their respective progeny. Her personhood is lost. She becomes a martyr for everyone else, an object with practical applications. What have you done for me lately?

    It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

    Don't traditional men realise how egocentric they are?

    All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

    Do other women feel this way?
    I recently had a conversation with my mom about this. She explained that a woman moves for the man if he's worth it in every other way, even if the girl gives up a lot to make it work. I can't say I agree with her, but it is practical to expect at least one person in a relationship to be willing to move or endure more changes than the other, if required (and depending on the situation).

    It secretly drives me mad, but I know my need for human companionship trumps principles in special circumstances.

  3. #33
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    hmmm i don't want to be crude, because my partner is an Ss, but yeah they seem so uniformed about these issues. My partner, i have to say, even tho he may not admit to it, but he's a hardcore traditionalist, and usually takes the control when we spend time together, but really it's the illusion of control i give him. Really i do my own thing and occasionally don't care to admit that he is right in this situation or another, I occasionally listen, and occasionally tune him out. I'd go nuts if i took his thinking to heart. I accept that we have different value systems and different ways of communicating and feel he is a good apple. I'm really after the communal expression of joy and peace between us, so if i get that it's all good. I really don't feel i'm sacrificing anything. And i kinda like the tradiationalist approach, and maybe alot of feminists would disagree with my choice, but to me it's valuable.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Just had a crashing realisation of what this thread was all about, at least as it relates to me. In hindsight, it was hypocritical of me to suggest that parental impact for Gen. Z wasn't applicable since within myself, that's exactly where it started. Sometimes, putting fleeting thoughts into writing, can not only be cathartic but also, enlightening from free association.
    Very true.

    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    I will never become my mother, a consumed and pathetic woman.
    CG. Jung, "Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype" (Collected Works 9) at (eg) http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungia....jung.124.html "....where there is an overwhelming resistance to the mother and all she stands for ... is the supreme example of the negative mother-complex. The motto of this type is: Anything, so long as it is not like Mother! "

    You may not become her. But are you actually any more free by reacting against her than by compliantly stepping into the role-model template that she exemplifies?

    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    This was a manifestation of my current commitment phobia. .
    ". . . All instinctive processes [may] meet with unexpected difficulties; either sexuality does not function properly, or the children are unwanted, or maternal duties seem unbearable, or the demands of marital life are responded to with impatience and irritation. Such a woman often excels in Logos activities, where her mother has no place. If she can overcome her merely reactive attitude toward reality, she may later in life come to a deeper appreciation of her femininity."

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    When I said "narrow the playing field" I meant narrow your options in terms of prospective partners ... ... Why would a man choose a woman who doesn't see him as her lord and master/ reason for being over one who does
    Beacuse the man would then have to exercise lordship and mastery over his woman. A modern man might be as fed up to the back teeth with being expected to compress himself into a timeworn stereotypical macho-male role as the modern woman is in submitting herself to it. In short, the man may want a partner, not a doormat-cum-housekeeper.

  5. #35
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    It is not only NT women.

  6. #36
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    It is not only NT women.
    If you met someone domineering who really did it for you, would you bend or move on to find an equal partner?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike5609 View Post



    CG. Jung, "Psychological Aspects of the Mother Archetype" (Collected Works 9) at (eg) http://www.jungny.com/lexicon.jungia....jung.124.html "....where there is an overwhelming resistance to the mother and all she stands for ... is the supreme example of the negative mother-complex. The motto of this type is: Anything, so long as it is not like Mother! "

    You may not become her. But are you actually any more free by reacting against her than by compliantly stepping into the role-model template that she exemplifies?
    "

    THIS
    ( . )( . )

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post

    It's one thing to want to give and take within a relationship and another through societal perceptions to be expected to be the little woman. Coerced loss of being and freedom.

    All of this triggers walls within me. It's teeth gritting when I perceive it, particularly when my personal
    boundaries are being pushed against or attempts are made to erode those boundaries.

    Do other women feel this way?
    I dont rail against otoutwardly no. But then I've not been much of an object of desire
    anyway so the position of needing to be someones 'woman' has never been one I've confronted much. I abhor societal pressures on both genders, but I am eccentric enough that few really expect me to fall into line with them. There is a certain freedom in others finding you strange, they excuse you from the norms of life as long as you dont break the law. The other edge to that sword is that they also shun you. But hey, whatever works for you.

    My mother spent her entire life railing against the position her father expected her to hold. 10yrs after he went to he grave she is still collecting academic qualificatiins in an effort to prove him wrong. Her dogged railing against trapped her more thoroughly than any of her marriages. She could divorce a husband but cant escape the fear of being deemed useless beyond motherhood.

  9. #39
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    If you met someone domineering who really did it for you, would you bend or move on to find an equal partner?
    I very much value my autonomy. I am not going near anyone who is taking that away from me! If I bend too much it would make me tremendously unhappy, I found myself in a relationship in my early 20s where I was bending wayyyy too much for the other person. Since then have worked on self respect and other things so I will not find myself again in such a situation. I think I also see this type of pattern in my mom in different scenarios. Not that my dad is domineering, just that my mom never seems to stand up for herself or say the things she wants, so a lot of the time he just has no clue, and she doesn't know how to act to make things different (or doesn't have the willpower? I dont know).


    And WAHHHH I just found out you are former Jenaphor!!

  10. #40
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I very much value my autonomy. I am not going near anyone who is taking that away from me! If I bend too much it would make me tremendously unhappy, I found myself in a relationship in my early 20s where I was bending wayyyy too much for the other person. Since then have worked on self respect and other things so I will not find myself again in such a situation. I think I also see this type of pattern in my mom in different scenarios. Not that my dad is domineering, just that my mom never seems to stand up for herself or say the things she wants, so a lot of the time he just has no clue, and she doesn't know how to act to make things different (or doesn't have the willpower? I dont know).


    And WAHHHH I just found out you are former Jenaphor!!
    This is what I've found most awesome. Watching the behaviour between parents. It's great insight into self.

    As at now, happy to be myself. I've had the marriage, had a child who's now parked in a college dorm far away, been in multiple relationships and are within a year of retiring. So now, my focus is on self-actualisation by tapping into knowledge of interest and also, attempting to tap into the more creative aspects of living. Dating and relationships are bottom rung compared to the rest of this!

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