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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).
    US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved. There can be a lot of pressure in some geographical reasons to "support the family." We've even got a new buzzword -- "Mama Grizzly" -- being promoted nationwide in the current election season by the likes of women like Palin and O'Donnell to describe women who are progressive in some ways but at the core still very traditional, especially about the role of the mother.

    Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved. There can be a lot of pressure in some geographical reasons to "support the family." We've even got a new buzzword -- "Mama Grizzly" -- being promoted nationwide in the current election season by the likes of women like Palin and O'Donnell to describe women who are progressive in some ways but at the core still very traditional, especially about the role of the mother.

    Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
    The first Gen Zs would be barely 19, so there are probably not too many that have been impacted by traditionalism beyond experiences from parents, etc. While parental influence impacts a great deal, it's not from the same perspective that this thread is discussing.

  3. #23
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.
    You have a point there...but your OP was about loss of personhood/independence, which is what I was thinking about. I think independence is very much encouraged in my generation. It's seen as a positive to have a stronge career, a social circle, and interests separate from your husband/bf.

    I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not seen as a positive or even a norm for the woman to be doing all the chores, either. Although the balance probably does lean towards the woman more often, partially because I think more women overall are bothered by mess than men (huge stereotype and often wrong, yes I know).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    US culture is weird, especially where religion is involved.
    ...
    Those are older women, though, still; women in their 20's? I'm not sure how they are viewing things. Gen Y and Z are different in how they approach life.
    Yeah. I'm very glad to live in an area not dominated overtly by religion. I'm not even all that sure what women in their 20s collectively think. I'm just guessing based on what I've seen in my peer group. Those kinds of traditional attitudes would definitely be frowned upon if anyone expressed them, which doesn't really happen. It's just assumed by everyone that everything is split equally most of the time.
    -end of thread-

  4. #24
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Just had a crashing realisation of what this thread was all about, at least as it relates to me. Sometimes, putting fleeting thoughts into writing, can not only be cathartic but also, enlightening from free association.

    This was a manifestation of my current commitment phobia. In hindsight, it was hypocritical of me to suggest that parental impact for Gen. Z wasn't applicable since within myself, that's exactly where it started. I will never become my mother, a consumed and pathetic woman.

  5. #25
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Never said I was powerless. Only that I grit my teeth when I experience it.
    Then what?

    There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

    I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

    It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #26
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I dunno I know plenty of young guys who don't work who expect their mom or their stripper gf to support them, even if they have multiple children...but I'm guessing you don't know a lot of white trash people.

    There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.

    So I'm not entirely sure what you're gritting your teeth about.
    It is always a disappointment to see how, "in this day and age" the underlying mentality is still the same for many people. Yes, there are more exceptions: more stay-at-home dads, more couples that are truly equal partners in both breadwinning and child-rearing. And there have always been men who expect some woman to support them. Most people I know, however, would consider such a man lazy, while a woman still living with parents, or supported by husband/bf is more likely to be viewed as exercising an acceptable option. Outward behaviors have changed more than internal assumptions an expectations.

  7. #27
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Then what?

    There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

    I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

    It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
    At present, I choose not to play, preferring freedom. After I've resolved this within myself, I will play it my way.

  8. #28
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    There was a whole generation of teeth-gritters in the 70s who barely achieved anything, other than the contempt of men and women alike.

    I see women piss and moan and then pick right up where their mothers left off. I see them balk at social expectations and then cow-tow to them. I see them complain about the way men treat them and then pander to those very same men.

    It's all just a game. You can chose to play by the rules, or you can choose to make your own rules and narrow your playing field considerably. At least you now have that choice.
    Absolutely. I stop at gritting my teeth when I observe the highlighted, only because I do not see it as up to me to tell someone else how to lead their life. In my own life, both my partner and I do exactly as you describe. We make our own rules and live out our own values. This has not narrowed the playing field; quite the opposite. It has broadened our horizons, and shown us that the real constraints we are facing are far less restrictive than what most people realize. Now and then, someone else is inspired by our example to question the unwritten rules and assumptions, and to make opportunities for themselves that they previously never considered.

  9. #29
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In my own life, both my partner and I do exactly as you describe. We make our own rules and live out our own values. This has not narrowed the playing field; quite the opposite. It has broadened our horizons, and shown us that the real constraints we are facing are far less restrictive than what most people realize. Now and then, someone else is inspired by our example to question the unwritten rules and assumptions, and to make opportunities for themselves that they previously never considered.
    When I said "narrow the playing field" I meant narrow your options in terms of prospective partners. Which it will inevitably do. Why would a man choose a woman who doesn't see him as her lord and master / reason for being over one who does - when such women are seemingly plentiful?
    However, you only have to find that one individual who sees things as you do. Then the teeth-gritting stops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Ahh, I was considering that you might mean our attitude puts us out of step with most folks, so we will have fewer friends. Perhaps so, but as introverts, we don't really care, and neither of us would dream of trying to be "lord and master" to the other. As for narrowing the field of prospective partners, that, too had its advantages. I never had to waste much effort fending off unwanted attention. You are right about needing only one compatible person, but as a teenager that felt like looking for a needle in a haystack. In the end, though, my own magnetic personality attracted the right one.

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