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  1. #11
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    Do "traditional men" as described in the OP still exist in any significant quantity?

    The concept seems bizarre to me that it is appropriate/healthy/desirable for a woman to subsume her identity into mine.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not saying you can't say anything. Just that you revealed a bit of a paternalistic attitude in that post. There is a difference between speaking up to offer an alternative perspective to an equal, and speaking up to "incite the sense that they need to be independent thinkers."
    Plus I'm not sure he would have treated boys/men the same.

    But I definitely see women struggle with this -- lots of times wearing hats trying to please everyone else, it's the dark side of the nurturing streak, trying to "nurture/feed" everyone with not nearly as much instinctual nurturing of self.

    A lot of more traditionally minded women even take pride in their ability to play that supporting role, they don't see it as bad even when they're immensely frustrated and feel like they have no life of their own. They usually expect the other people in their life to be sensitive and take care of them in return, instead of embracing a more independent route and draw some self-boundaries.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #13
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Plus I'm not sure he would have treated boys/men the same.
    I'm even harder on men. But men more easily tend to regard themselves as very independent.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    I'm even harder on men.
    Way to prove my point.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Way to prove my point.
    Not about being independent. About accepting submission from women.

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Metaphor, I don't think bristling at traditional expectations is limited to NT women.
    +1

    But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).
    -end of thread-

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Metaphor, I don't think bristling at traditional expectations is limited to NT women.
    True. Thought about putting it elsewhere, couldn't decide where since there's no sociology subforum, so here it went.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Why would they? There's no incentive to do so.
    True again.

    I don't allow anyone to push my boundaries. You are not powerless in this equation.
    Never said I was powerless. Only that I grit my teeth when I experience it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    But I don't really see those expectations at all these days. If anything women who would naturally gravitate to a more "traditional" role are discouraged. Maybe it's different where you live (or in older generations).
    So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.

  8. #18
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    So, are you saying there aren't any women in the "younger" set that not only take care of house and home but also work outside of home? Seems to me that it's even worse in some ways, for the "enlightened" generation.
    I know plenty of women in the "younger set" that work outside the home, but there usually seems to be this tacit assumption that they don't need to, because it is ultimately the husband's job to support them, the family, etc. They are free to work, full- or part-time, or to freelance, or to stay home and keep house. No such "freedom" is associated with the men, however. And when children are involved, however devoted the fathers, the assumption is often still that they are the mother's first priority. The behavior is less traditional, partly due to economics, but the attitudes often remain very much so, and I grit my teeth at it, too.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I know plenty of women in the "younger set" that work outside the home, but there usually seems to be this tacit assumption that they don't need to, because it is ultimately the husband's job to support them, the family, etc. They are free to work, full- or part-time, or to freelance, or to stay home and keep house. No such "freedom" is associated with the men, however. And when children are involved, however devoted the fathers, the assumption is often still that they are the mother's first priority. The behavior is less traditional, partly due to economics, but the attitudes often remain very much so, and I grit my teeth at it, too.
    I dunno I know plenty of young guys who don't work who expect their mom or their stripper gf to support them, even if they have multiple children...but I'm guessing you don't know a lot of white trash people.

    There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.

    So I'm not entirely sure what you're gritting your teeth about.

  10. #20
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    There are some stay-at-home dads, but lots of guys don't want to stay home, and statistics show that married mothers who work outside the home still bear the brunt of the responsibility for housework and childcare, even if they work the same number of hours as their husband.
    Yes, this is more often than not, the norm.

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