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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Besides, it's just as much a fallacy to support someone solely because they haven't offered their side as much as it is to support someone solely because they have.
    I hope you don't believe that I am supporting the absent person. I just like to play the devil's advocate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Okay... and how does that play out here, in what you think people should be accountable for vs not?

    For at least practical purposes, the penal code of any community exists because people are assumed to be responsible for their behavior, regardless of the degree of "free will" they might feel they experience.
    If I had a good alternative to the empirical approach, which holds us accountable for what we do intentionally and on our own free will, I would be rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    For starters, just because something is normative is no reason for you to simply discard it; you need to at least explore the reason the code exists and determine if it serves a reasonable and practical purpose.
    I have thought about ethics for quite some time, the result of which is that I have reason to discard something just because it is normative. I don't have to, but I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    There is far too much of you simply positioning yourself against whatever you perceive the "norm opinion" to be for me to take it as anything but wishful thinking.
    That's understandable. You don't know me very well.

  2. #42
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I hope you don't believe that I am supporting the absent person. I just like to play the devil's advocate.
    Ah, sorry. I took your comments seriously rather than in the manner in which you intended them.

    I have thought about ethics for quite some time, the result of which is that I have reason to discard something just because it is normative. I don't have to, but I can.
    Hmm. I toss out some, keep others. It depends on how useful and appropriate they seem to be. Plus, I have a few things of my own that I follow because I find them personally valuable/coherent for myself.

    That's understandable. You don't know me very well.
    Ditto. But you haven't been here long, that'll probably change once you've posted more.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #43
    Junior Member Sioul's Avatar
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    I know we are all trying to be as diplomatic as possible here, but I think I like the "he was just an asshole who cheated" approach the best.

    Atleast for the sake of maintaining my sanity

  4. #44
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    There is too much normative ethics in your comment for me to take it as anything but wishful thinking.
    It makes sense though. The thoughts that come into ones head are not controllable by any means. When someone is angry, as I said, they may very well wish to harm the other person. You can't help it if this idea comes into your head. It doesn't necessarily mean you are doing a bad thing. Emotions are natural and difficult to control, but you CAN control the choices these cause you to make.

    You wouldn't get upset with someone for NOT punching someone because they wanted to do it and chose not to. They made a better decision, because this way, nobody was physically harmed. It's the same situation here. It would have caused the other person less harm to have not cheated, and in my opinion, that would make it a better choice. Now the more debatable part is whether it would have been appropriate to tell them of the desire to cheat. On one hand, it could cause negative feelings for the person, as they may percieve themselves not to be enough, but on the other hand, it would show that they are honest and trying to resolve a problem.
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  5. #45
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    Emotions are natural and difficult to control, but you CAN control the choices these cause you to make.
    Good that you cleared that up for all those funny people who spend their lives finding out the truth in this matter.

  6. #46
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Good that you cleared that up for all those funny people who spend their lives finding out the truth in this matter.
    What do you mean?

    Is that sarcastic or sincere?

    If it's sarcastic, are you saying that is not a difficult feat for any given person to avoid feeling things, such as anger, happiness, and even horniness (as seems in part to be the case here)? Because while that may be true for the occasional rare individual, I am pretty sure most people can not decide if they are going to get annoyed/pleased/turned on etc. by something or not through pure choice. But most people can control it to at least some degree. So if you disagree, I would like to know why.
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  7. #47
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    What do you mean?
    I mean it is fairly presumptuous of you to think your concept to be the ultimate truth in this matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    Is that sarcastic or sincere?
    Sarcastic.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrsherlockholmes View Post
    If it's sarcastic, are you saying that is not a difficult feat for any given person to avoid feeling things, such as anger, happiness, and even horniness (as seems in part to be the case here)?
    No.

  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Lol... Te pwns Ti, that's what happen when people play by different rules.

    So put yourself out there a bit, Nico. What's your issue with a statement like "...you CAN control the choices [that emotions] cause you to make." Is that NOT a true statement... and why isn't it?

    Right now, you're just resorting to tacit ad hominems and shooting things down without caring enough to explain why you believe something different to be true... in fact, discussion context even insinuates you might believe the opposite to be true, which seems a little preposterous, I can't imagine that no human being anywhere has ever not controlled their behavior in contrast to their emotions to some degree... but in any case a discussion is not much of a discussion without a discussion.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    If determinism is true, then it may seem as if we are controlling our bahavior (if so, why not also our emotions?) while we are, in fact, merely acting out the inevitable. I do not know the truth, I can live with that for the time being. Everyone is allowed to have their own view. But this conversation is pointless. I am simply not interested in his personal view, which so happens to be the most common view one can possibly have of 'free will'. Therefore I answer the questions posed to me but do not attempt to feed a horse that should already be dead.

    To forestall the next questions: Yes, I do think it is an important issue. Yes, I do intend to learn the truth. No, I am not going to explain my current personal view of the matter in detail.

    Does free will not remind you of absolute time?

  10. #50
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I guess I should have put a warning in: "In case of determinism being accurate, the above statement is false as every choice is predetermined and we have no control of anything."

    Clarifying everything in terms of determinism is pointless, because while it may be true, as far as any human will ever percieve, they are in control of their actions and occasionally, their emotions. As far as we can experience, we have free will. It's not a bold statement that I made. Determinism aside, it's basically true, and along with my clarification that some rare people have good control over their emotions, I doubt you will find anyone who can honestly disagree with that. It's a painfully simple concept and I don't know why you needed to make it into a big thing.
    JiNe
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    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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