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  1. #11
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quick question that I've not been able to get a definitive answer for.

    Are there control elements to the internalising of self-perceived failure?

  2. #12
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post

    And on point 2.
    I've always said that my ideal would be to fall one step short of omnipotence, because it's not about aquiring all information and knowledge. It's about being able to reach for more information and knowledge. I always want to be able to reach out and gain more insights. If I was to be omnipotent, allknowing. I would have nothing left to live for. So that would suck.
    If you think about it, all we ever do is strive for things, yet once we have those things, we simply move on to wanting other things, and if we have everything, we are not happy. So really what is the point in striving for something which will not ever really bring us happiness? We are all just searching for something for nothing.

    Sorry to be all nihilistic for a moment.
    JiNe
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    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  3. #13
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    4. INTP's strengths often leave it in the position of feeling out of place in society and human community -- its "rational truths" can be disruptive and meanwhile there is little intuitive sense at first of how people relate (since people typically get reduced to machines/constructs) -- and this impedes one's life success and progress. It can be extremely demoralizing to watch a majority of people who one finds vapid and shallow in many ways succeed using what is seen as inferior thinking/methods and realizing that one can never be like them nor want to be... and yet not succeed as oneself either. INTP adaptability leads many to start flexing to society's opinion and wondering if indeed it is a failure and waste of human space.
    This one, in particular, bothered me for years. I used to have major esteem issues (sometimes I still feel that way), but I've gotten better and more comfortable over the last few years, especially having found people like me and embracing the sect of society I attract as one I have no interest in trading for another.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #14
    Member metasapiens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    it just tends to eradicate self by reducing it to a quantitative equation.
    My quantitative equation is bigger than yours.

    :rolli:

  5. #15
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I would not say that it's because "other type are superior," because in many ways INTP assumes that its rational process is superior to other methods of thinking/decision-making, and also often views itself as "smarter than others" and takes pride in that.
    Yes. But not me.


    When an INTP has low self-esteem, it probably results from some combination of these:
    1. INTP deconstructs everything, including itself.
    2. INTP dismisses assumptions, wanting to rely only on rational conclusions. But self-esteem is built on an internalized assumption about one's value.

    In any case, a lot of identity and self-esteem comes from assumptions about one's value and self, but INTP constantly wants to "step outside and scrutinize" oneself... and deconstructing self is not a pathway that really leads to self-esteem, it just tends to eradicate self by reducing it to a quantitative equation.
    Does it? This is new and interesting to me. But it is true that there is no inherent meaning in ourselves, correct?

    I basically source my own low self-esteem on occasional situations wherein another social animal "seems" to have better capability than me. So I guess it depends by comparison, my judgement(which always fails) and my need for comparison.

    As for the deconstruction leads to low self-esteem, It reminds of me of my many moments of "whys" and how that often leads to myself depressing over having no 'purpose' or meaning in life.

  6. #16
    Member metasapiens's Avatar
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    Seriously, most IxxPs are prone to intropunition and self deprecation when they lose the purpose of protecting the object from the subject. They adapt themselves for the sake of it, they deprive themselves of all legitimacy as an object and a subject, using of the pacifist's fallacy to justify their resignation.

  7. #17
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    The INTP's skill is in comparing something to an ideal to find a flaw. That's why they're superior at debate. If you turn that skill inward, you'll eventually start to find a lot of flaws in yourself and generate a lot of shame.

  8. #18
    Consulting Detective Mr. Sherlock Holmes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    This one, in particular, bothered me for years. I used to have major esteem issues (sometimes I still feel that way), but I've gotten better and more comfortable over the last few years, especially having found people like me and embracing the sect of society I attract as one I have no interest in trading for another.
    Yeah, I think another problem is that INTPs have only a very small section of reality that works for INTPs. In this world we have the vast majority of people being S's, and while I'm not sure of the statistics, a good lot of those are Js. And as we all know, SJs with limited understandings of the world (a fair few) can be eternally frustrating to INTPs. All these unnecessary social, political and organisational rules that have been built up in society over time, hanging on to old and outdated principles. Society values hard work (this one is fair enough) far more than imagination and a desire to seek truth. It's a society that most of the time, does not want change, does not want truth. Just order, and is run by greed and consumerism. This sort of thing rarely sits well with INTPs. We are outcasts to the majority of the world. We just have vastly different ways of thinking. The happy INTP is the one who can find a sanctuary from the rest of reality where they can relate with people who understand them, utilise their gifts effectively and not be excessively restrained by societal pressures. Otherwise, they end up feeling that either they are inadequate, or that the world around them is, which can lead to depression if overthought.
    JiNe
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    Enneagram: 5w4 sx/sp

    "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

    "It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

  9. #19
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I often wish that I could live with monks. Not become one, but just enjoy the COMPLETE silence, besides the amazing chanting, all the time. It just makes me feel warm inside. I'd say the completeness of analysis of everything is most definitly what causes my depression. I don't leave any stone unturned even if it has been turned a million times because something could be different this time around.

  10. #20
    loopy Ulaes's Avatar
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    ... and the cure is?

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