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  1. #21
    Senior Member Sparrow's Avatar
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    So what are the good things about being a P'? It can be annoying to be a J' at times. Everything is planned to a tee, it's ridiculous! I wasted hours of my time preparing for my trip this weekend, researching, comparing, making phone calls, calculating numbers, creating itineraries, how anal!
    Fe | Ni | Se | Ti ... 3w4 ... Lawful Neutral ... Johari -Nohari

  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    If one wants to try to develop Jness for him-/herself, one should try to do it for oneself and not for society.

    If you do describe Jness with aspects which are directly related to society, like punctuality or followthrough on projects, I'ld say it's not your lack of Jness you dont like, it's a lack of motivation with the things you do and this can have a lot of causes. With school projects, it's obvious: school sucks. If you have it with all projects you do, you can be in a phase of life of unsettlement, which happens for around 20 year olds. In such a phase you will be unhappy with everything you do, but it will pass with age ( and come back later ).

    Jness in its purest form, is the evil to P's. Jness is to filter information for the ones that intrest you. Everybody does that to a point but with J-types its mandatory. Like INTJs dont answer to every thread or some only write in the politics section, etc. Or SJs hardly leaving their own forums, because they are not intrested in you.

    You know how many different ideas you can hav from here. But one thing is definitly wrong: Pness isnt what hinders you to do what you want. Its only you yourself who does that. Per definition Pness should be even be the thing that enables you to do A LOT
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    This is really interesting.

    Abstract ideas (scroll down for practical shit)

    Quite honestly, I love my P because it helps me generate possibilities (unless I am stressed out and cannot 'think things through' because I am 'so wound up'). Everyone thinks P means perception/perceptive...whateverrrrrrrr it means possibilities.

    Following through was a skill I had to learn, and as mundane as it sounds, life gives you situations that FORCE you to learn this skill.

    Anyway, for example, I have a project due. I mull it around in my brain for about a month. Floating tangents fly like mosquitoes on a hot summer's evening. Then, they gather together like a school of fish. And when everything makes sense, POW!!!!! I go into crazy mode, and that allows me to focus, working about 5-10 hours a day until the thing is finished in a week.

    On time.

    Right on target.

    Of course this pisses off a lot of Js (Couldn't you plan better? Why did you have to wait until the last minute? Imagine the results you'd get if you were actually consistent and not acting in a burst of sudden momentum?)

    Well, fuck you. This is how I work, and as long as I generate accurate, positive results that are delivered on schedule, who gives a rat's flying fart if I do it in a single burst the week before or every day for 1-2 hours?

    So rather than hating yourself, love yourself. Embrace the positive sides.


    Practical ideas

    And if you want concrete tips on how to help yourself remember shit and not lose yourself amid the five billion projects you're juggling on the fly, take this from a freelancer with five to six jobs running in a parallel fashion next to an upcoming master's program:

    1. An organizer. Dude. Seriously. That thing is my brain. If I lost it, the world would end....And since I know I lose shit easily, I keep a spare around.

    2. A notebook. I need to write down ideas as they fly. If I am in super-hyper mode I record my ideas on my cell or on the computer e.g. talk rather than write. It's bloody easier anyways.

    3. Set a deadline. I'm really strict. Sometimes I trick myself into thinking, "I will get fired if I don't complete this project. And this is the DO OR DIE DEADLINE DUMB ASS, so get it DONE YOU STUPID FART!!!!" Not really positive reinforcement, but whatever works.

    4. Give yourself a kick in the ass. We all need it sometimes. If you can't kick yourself, have someone do it for you. Don't rest on your laurels and think oh whaaa I'm a P; I never get things done on time. Say, "Okay, listen asshole, you wanna make it, GET OFF YOUR BUTT AND DO IT GARRRRRRRRRRRRR!" You can do this with self-motivation, music, or other people that just set a fire under your ass.

    5. Think of the end result, not the process. This helps me a lot. I think of my projects as a finished project, actually generally thinking about what I am going to do wayyy after. Of course, this can be a hindrance if you think, oh ferk it I don't need to work because shit fire, it's done. But if you think about it in a motivating way, e.g. HELLZ YEAH ONCE THIS IS DONE, I can do THIS AND THIS AND THIS AND THAT, and that will lead to this and this will lead to the other wonderful possibility then you feel like, "Well damn what are we waiting for??? LET'S DO THIS THING!!!!!!!!"

    6. Get yourself excited. Yeah, think hellz yeahhhhhhhhhh!!!! I'm going to kick this project's ass. I make it into a game. Like I bet, "HA! I betcha I can finish this step in an hour." "Oh, yeah, well if I finish it in 45 minutes, I'll give myself a treat at the end." And BOOM, shit fire, that step is done in like 40 minutes. Or do it the other way. Listen to the voice that says, "Fuck, you'll never get done," then turn it around and say, "Oh, yeah, well SCREW YOU I'll get it done by...." And boom, when you do, listen to your favorite song, or eat a square of chocolate, or do your favorite thing for ten minutes.

    7. Keep active/fit. Nothing's worse than sitting on your butt all day moping about your unfinished shit. Get your butt moving - literally. Stimulates happy, happy hormones (kind like the game happy, happy hippos, but with feeding your hormones instead) all that cool dopamine and serotonin and shit running through your veins and all the oxygen and stuff making your brain clear besides if you're pissed that you have to work, screw it, PUNCH IT OUT RAWRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

    8. Give yourself little reward(s) after. Then you can have something to look forward to. Money to spend that was in your little jar under the bed. A cool movie you want to see. A game you want to play. New software. New books. WTF ever. Something to make you go RAWR I am done.

    9. If you're extraverted, find a partner/group you can TRUST and split the work. As long as you don't have to motivate only the other assholes, you can motivate each other. Split the work. You're done faster, so it's more efficient. That's assuming the other guys aren't lazy asses of course. But if they are competent and trustworthy, why not?

    10. If you're introverted, find something that makes you focus. A certain kind of music, environment, a quiet place with no distractions. That forces you to stay on target. Sometimes I need this, too. Being in a room with no other shit around helps me not get distracted. I guess it would help an introverted guy, too.

  4. #24
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    As a scorer of 100% P in most cases J has always seemed like a mystery to me, it never looks more efficient and despite what most people think I've always found P to be a faster process

    Take a clean room vs dirty room for a simple example, I clean my room significantly less than a J which saves time, I also know where things are located straight away cause they are exactly where I left them, I clean when its absolutely required not "just cause" although a simple example this spills into a lot of different aspects

    There are many other examples and there have been threads on this before if you are willing to do a search where I have rigorously debated against this idea that P is somehow inefficient

    You raise a good point. One point of contention with an INTJ I lived with, is whenever he would adopt some share of mundane tasks, it would always be extremely lopsided because he would spend like 1 hour cleaning the kitchen, when I could do it (to no discernible difference) in 20 minutes... he was very meticulous, but in my view it was unnecessary.

    So is it my P which allows me to sometimes accomplish things much, much faster than other people? It only works, seemingly, at the last minute however. Interesting...
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
    - Umberto Eco

    INTP e9 (sx/so/sp)
    Ti = Ne (41.3) > Si (31.2) ~ Ni (31.1) ~ Te (30.1) > Se (24.1) >> Fe (21) & Fi (20.1)

  5. #25
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    If one wants to try to develop Jness for him-/herself, one should try to do it for oneself and not for society.

    If you do describe Jness with aspects which are directly related to society, like punctuality or followthrough on projects, I'ld say it's not your lack of Jness you dont like, it's a lack of motivation with the things you do and this can have a lot of causes. With school projects, it's obvious: school sucks. If you have it with all projects you do, you can be in a phase of life of unsettlement, which happens for around 20 year olds. In such a phase you will be unhappy with everything you do, but it will pass with age ( and come back later ).

    Jness in its purest form, is the evil to P's. Jness is to filter information for the ones that intrest you. Everybody does that to a point but with J-types its mandatory. Like INTJs dont answer to every thread or some only write in the politics section, etc. Or SJs hardly leaving their own forums, because they are not intrested in you.

    You know how many different ideas you can hav from here. But one thing is definitly wrong: Pness isnt what hinders you to do what you want. Its only you yourself who does that. Per definition Pness should be even be the thing that enables you to do A LOT
    Yeah, I think I might be in that 20s low spot, maybe. Le sigh.

    I will work on embracing the P and finding motivation. That wasn't the first thought I had - but external motivations don't work very well, certainly not enough to get one out of bed every day. So I'll work on my internal motivations... hmmm. Thanks.
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
    - Umberto Eco

    INTP e9 (sx/so/sp)
    Ti = Ne (41.3) > Si (31.2) ~ Ni (31.1) ~ Te (30.1) > Se (24.1) >> Fe (21) & Fi (20.1)

  6. #26
    Senior Member flameskull95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I'm an older INTP...haven't figured out to do with my P-ness yet.

    I keep coming up with more ideas, more thoughts, more suggestions, more, more, more and cannot come to a satisfactory conclusion.

    ... lol. I'm sure you'll find out one day...
    I'm a INFP - The sociopath

    I think I'm either a 4w5, 4w3, 6w5 or 9w1. Most possibly 4w5.

    Feeling FiNe

  7. #27
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    LL! How are you! You need to reply to your VM's (look who's talking ).

    That's some neat advice, I've been meaning to ask for tips about this. As you may remember (I hope you remember me ) I'm a philosophy student, and though I love the topic, I find actually focusing and reading really hard. I used to get a few phil buddies from the same class so I have a learning environment suited for extroverts, but that's not really an option anymore. You have any ideas as a fellow ENFP how to externalise the process? So far, all I have is reading out loud and making notes on everything just to keep the process kinesthetic.

  8. #28
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    For the record, INTP and INTJ differ in many more ways than just the P negativity you experience. INTJ's have a completely different cognative function order than us.

    If I don't get things done because of my Pness, then those things must not have been worth doing in the first place. Important stuff I always get done.

    I love my Pness. It organises my life my way. Not J-ish like how things 'should' be generally speaking. But how things should be according to me!

    For work, I can chameleon my way into a J-like mode without too much problems and nowadays it doesn't seem to drain me that much anymore. As long as I have a small portion of the day that I can completely fill however I want to fill it without any external influence.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #29
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    LL! How are you! You need to reply to your VM's (look who's talking ).

    That's some neat advice, I've been meaning to ask for tips about this. As you may remember (I hope you remember me ) I'm a philosophy student, and though I love the topic, I find actually focusing and reading really hard. I used to get a few phil buddies from the same class so I have a learning environment suited for extroverts, but that's not really an option anymore. You have any ideas as a fellow ENFP how to externalise the process? So far, all I have is reading out loud and making notes on everything just to keep the process kinesthetic.
    TL;DR Version below the long-winded answer!

    Hey, Ani, of course I remember you!!! I answered your VM, but just a bit later - talking about on topic haha.

    If I may digress to answer Ani's question - well, I can only tell you how *I* as an extravert dealt with the situation of learning when I didn't have a cohort of people I could trust to back me up.

    Of course everyone's learning style is different, so if you want a really great, tailored answer, I'd have to know your preferred learning methods. However, I can tell you what I did.

    I talked a lot. To myself. I know that sounds freaky, but when preparing a presentation, I physically did it out loud, pretending the class was in front of me. When I studied, I imagined I was teaching a class full of pupils or students myself and filled in any blank spots as I went. It also helped to imagine what the teacher/professor wanted to hear, which I was able to figure out more often than not.

    With languages, I practiced. Out loud. And I didn't give a fat rat's ass if my roommate thought it was weird (as long as she didn't need quiet for studying and didn't have company over). I wouldn't do it loudly - just loud enough for my ears to pick it up and compare with the listening exercise. I'll never forget my roommate's reaction when I was practicing Russian, "Damn, that sounds like Klingon," to which I retorted, "Well, if you had any questions as what the Klingons represented in RL, there you have it." That shut her up pretty quickly. Anyway, then I went back to practicing. Laugh if you will, but I was the one with the A at the end of the semester. So if it works and brings results, fuck what other people think. They're generally lazy dumb asses anyway. (Woooo hooo for unhealthy Fi judgments yeahhhhhhh).

    With regard to groups, I basically stayed in the background, listening to what others were saying. Might sound weird for an extravert, but I need to observe quietly, analyze, make connections, and THEN contribute. I generally throw in ideas, possibilities, or ways to realize the goal. Then I sit and listen, throwing things in when necessary. Or using unhealthy Fi to bitch about how incompetent and a waste of time this stupid-ass group is. But every once in a while, you get an awesome dynamic that energizes you, and when that happens, I am usually the one getting all excited, talking about this possibility and that method, and someone else keeps me on track. It pisses me off and damn well pretty much offends me when *I* have to keep people on track - it's a task I let others manage because I don't enjoy it. I'd rather keep others pumped.

    And this may sound a bit schizoid but whatever, it's effective for me. I have a round-table discussion in my head. Especially if I am preparing for a discussion, debate, or untangling a problem or trying to analyze the weaknesses of an argument or whatever. You have different 'perspectives' in your brain. And everyone argues effectively with everyone else. At the end of the discussion, if it was productive, it will generate a cool-ass answer or questions to ask the prof.

    A sweet spin off is to act out the discussion that you have in your head (when you're alone). Act it out! Change voices even. Be animated and even get pissed at 'someone else' in the discussion. Make it fun! Laugh at some people's arguments - and guess what - you can because it's just YOU, so you don't have to pay attention to social conventions. Analyze yourself with your own brain. And if you aren't alone, and you cannot drag your roommates into a discussion, just keep it in your brain. Then you look all concentrated and studious and smart and good shit like that, and in reality, you're having a blast!!!!!!

    Of course the best is to find a group of insightful, intelligent and fun people to actually REALLY have a discussion with. But if you cannot, well - that's a good alternative!!!!

    Okay, okay, my ideas aren't exactly 'normal' or 'conventional' or whatever - well, maybe they are, but I don't see a lot of people doing this stuff - and for us extraverts who have a dearth of test subjects and fellow conversationalists - these work like a charm.

    During class, I participate as much as I can. Sounds like ass kissing, but it isn't. You need to keep engaged or you get bored. That means taking copious notes of lectures (I usually turn it into a game - how precise can I take the notes; how fast can I go?; can I keep up with the prof speaking; can I make cooler abbreviations for stuff?) Keep your brain active though - don't go into auto-pilot. Keep thinking, following, making connections - hell it's what you do best, right????

    Usually, I never look at the notes again until I study for a test. Why? The act of physically writing it down and keeping my brain active SEALS it in my brain. More effective. Less boring studying. Then when I study, you know what I do? This is really freaking retarded, so I don't know if I recommend it or not - I copy them over again! Type it or write it? Why? Because you're writing - and when I write, I SAY THE WORDS IN MY HEAD. So I am writing, reading, etc. And what other people tell me, although I don't notice it, is in the smallest whisper, I say the words. Weird shit, didn't even notice.

    Then do the teaching stuff.

    OKAY TL;DR VERSION:

    1. Take notes, write, stay active in discussions, copious notes in lectures
    2. Give your own lecture. Practice the presentation out loud. Have a round-table discussion, looking at things from different perspectives.
    3. If you are in a study group, pull on your strengths by giving new ideas, etc.
    4. Everyone learns differently - it would help if I knew your preferred learning style so that I could give a more effective response.

  10. #30
    Senior Member hilo's Avatar
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    LL,

    Nice stuff. I don't think talking out loud will work for me (I am one of those people where talking out loud would make me *not* listen to the words) but I can totally see how it would help E-types especially.

    I am also an academic scientist (in training)... and I would be totally shamed if my boss new how infrequently I read papers. Usually I have to put myself into a totally empty room, just me and papers, and not let myself out until I have read like 20. I will do them in big spurts. I've been trying to read one or two a day since I started, and I just NEVER do it. But I'm starting to work with the idea that that is just how it is going to be. Maybe I will have a paper-reading day once a week and be done with it... hmm...
    I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.
    - Umberto Eco

    INTP e9 (sx/so/sp)
    Ti = Ne (41.3) > Si (31.2) ~ Ni (31.1) ~ Te (30.1) > Se (24.1) >> Fe (21) & Fi (20.1)

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