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[NT] What do ENTPs think of INTPs

Tallulah

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Sorry to hear that.

What have you learnt about INTP-ENTP relationships, that while unique to you, may be good advice for others?

Well, from my end, I'd say that even though it might be tempting for an ENTP to be wrapped up in their own stuff, and then carve out a couple of hours to be with the person in their lives, the other person might feel like they're just another item on the to-do list. I am really independent and pretty low maintenance. I can be totally supportive of an ENTP's lifework, and I don't need to be treated like a fairy princess 24/7. But I need to know that they're equally supportive of my stuff, and I would like to feel more integrated into each other's interests if they're something we share. I'd rather the ENTP (as I read in the Ask an ENTP thread, I think) sit next to me and do their stuff rather than do their stuff completely separately all the time and then get around to doing something with me specifically. It just felt so compartmentalized.

In the case of my ENTP, I would like to feel like there was a little flexing and accommodating on both sides, rather than me being the magical girl he's been looking for that slides right into his life and doesn't demand anything of him.

I would say he probably would have wished I was a little more vocal, as others have said. I'm sure there were lots of times he found me hard to read. Overall, I would have liked more openness and trust on both sides.

Even though I thought I would like the NT-NT thing of being able to rationally and unemotionally talk about the relationship, I found I didn't really like that aspect. You start to wonder how much you or they really care if you're able to detach yourself. I think you still need a fair amount of sensitivity to the other's feelings, NT though they may be.
 

nozflubber

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re nozflubber's post - i think immature entps tend to be bit brash with opinions that don't click with theirs, but as they mature they can appreciate different points of view and be more relaxed/nuanced (tallulah used the word intense - i was more intense when i was a baby strawberry).

see that's where I totally disagree. Yes of course, anyone will see that trying to engage an ENTP such as Eck (<3 2 my francophone pal if he reads this) in ANY kind of discussion is futile. You just let him run his mouth, intake any good ideas or critiques he has (which he often does), and then go on about your day. Sharing with ENTPs like that is akin to trying to share with a brick wall. There's NO incentive from our end and no doubt you can see that.

My contention to you and ALL the ENTPs saying "i wish INTPs would share more" is that ENTPs as described above are the norm rather than the rare, EVEN when accounting for maturity levels. You say it's immaturity, but I say what you refer to as maturity is just some ENTPs realizing they need to hide, for the sake of social graces, the fact that they feel their train of thought and analysis on an issue is the best and most prosperous. But its just so as to merely be polite and PC to others around them. They still will read what you have to say, politely refute or ignore you REGARDLESS of the analytical input you've brought forth, and continue on with whatever train of thought they were working on before. I even feel you kind of did just that in your post there and didn't even bother to try and listen to me, but I don't want to throw stones at you - just saying what it looks like from my vantage point.

I'm not bitter about past experiences i've had, because there's nothing really bitter to be about other than maybe disappointment. I really wish there was a point or purpose it trying to share my inner musings with ENTPs as much as there is in sharing it with INTJs and ENTJs. I just don't see what that point could be, unfortunately. Perhaps this perception is just me valuing the NTJs Te analysis to help me crosscheck my own ideas which *I* feel are superior to the ENTPs, but I just don't know.
 

entropie

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Sharing with ENTPs like that is akin to trying to share with a brick wall, and no doubt you see that.

[...]You say it's immaturity, but I say what you refer to as maturity is just some ENTPs realizing they need to hide, for the sake of social graces, the fact that they feel their train of thought and analysis on an issue is the best and most prosperous. [...]

Hiding is insecurity. A loud and obnoxious, assertive person is hiding his insecurity, always, cause attack is the best defense.

I cant speak for all entps, but for me its not even easy to share my own thoughts with my gf. On top of that, there is no clear set of "my own thoughts". When I talk to five people about a matter, my train of thought in the end is formed by various parts of their opinions, influenced by how I feel about it. This results in a fluctuating piece of waterlike opinion, which can be influenced by any better and new idea again.

As a person, my most definite problem in life was always to talk about myself and to be taken seriously by people. I've thought intps would suffer similiar issues, instead they strike you with the sword of justice.

The behaviour you talk about, I dont know how to change. I dont want to talk with people about my feelings, it would just make me angry and really upset. I dont know how to solve this problem and I dont understand why I need to. I've yet to meet a person, who had similiar experiences like me in life to talk with him/her about life. I accept other opinions, but 9 out of 10 opinions can be contradicted with 1,000 different ideas and views on the matter and to really discuss with someone, clinging to an idea that can be viewen from thousand different perspectives and he doesnt want to see that, is taxing by all means.
 

nozflubber

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I've thought intps would suffer similiar issues, instead they strike you with the sword of justice.


...to really discuss with someone, clinging to an idea that can be viewen from thousand different perspectives and he doesnt want to see that, is taxing by all means.

hmmmm, maybe both are to blame here them? Maybe Ti mixed w/ Ne tends to make us both ego-centric jerks that say "i can't be wrong and I don't wanna listen", because I'm also guilty of some of the things I am critical of in my above post.
 

strawberries

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good ideas get traction with me; they give me a buzz - whether they're mine or someone else's.
 

nozflubber

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good ideas get traction with me; they give me a buzz - whether they're mine or someone else's.

That's great! Me too.

Now, i'll ask it again but more briefly: what incentive do I as INTP have to share with you? To give you your buzz?

Did you even bother reading my entire post or were you answering someone else or something? :/
 

entropie

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hmmmm, maybe both are to blame here? Maybe Ti mixed w/ Ne tends to make us both ego-centric jerks that say "i can't be wrong and I don't wanna listen", because I'm also guilty of some of the things I am critical of in my above post.

Whatever the answer is, I can assure you, I give a shit on my standing or reputation in society and will always do. I dont respect hierarchy based on authority or coolness or whatsoever, I respect people for their knowledge and their wisdom.

I personally evade all emotional talk whenever I can and all talk about me or life in general whenever I can. The times I really managed to overcome my own momentum of inertia when it comes to dealing with my own feelings, were followed by long periods of depression, cause I found so many unanswered feelings and things I didnt understand about me, that I became a masterpiece emo. And this insightfulness hindered my forthcoming in society to such a great extent, I dont know, I was even at points where I wanted to end my life. This isnt the way for me, I have yet to find the right mixture, between ignoring myself and understanding myself.
 

Salomé

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hmmmm, maybe both are to blame here them? Maybe Ti mixed w/ Ne tends to make us both ego-centric jerks that say "i can't be wrong and I don't wanna listen", because I'm also guilty of some of the things I am critical of in my above post.

I was gonna say something to this effect - all NTs have a tendency to be combative/dismissive. And what entropie was saying about insecurity is true. Many (most?) ENTPs are profoundly insecure, hence the need to impose themselves on their environment / make an impression. They need massive amounts of reassurance too. It gets wearing. But then I realised that this is turning into the "what intps think of entps" thread.
 

entropie

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I was gonna say something to this effect - all NTs have a tendency to be combative/dismissive. And what entropie was saying about insecurity is true. Many (most?) ENTPs are profoundly insecure, hence the need to impose themselves on their environment / make an impression. They need massive amounts of reassurance too. It gets wearing. But then I realised that this is turning into the "what intps think of entps" thread.

Yes.

I've surpassed the point at which I needed those massive amounts of reassurance. With age it's getting better. I've learnt to trust more in my abilities and to rarely question my motives.

This "old illness" tho is constantly bickering with my soul, everytime I am doing something. I managed to keep it hidden so good that they even entrusted me with an important job as a decider at work, which is like a nightmare for me.

I have thought about what to do next and I probably will need to see a doctor about this. I cant live with this constant question influencing my emotions "door A or door B ? what about door C ?"; "did I do it right ? Or didnt I ? Did I offend him ? What does he think ?"
 

Tallulah

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Very interesting insights, entropie! Out of curiosity, since you're with an INFJ, do you find your girlfriend balances you, or handles the emotional checkbook, as a friend of mine refers to it? Do you find yourself sharing emotions or being vulnerable only when absolutely necessary? How do you feel closeness to others? By sharing ideas? By being there for each other?
 

entropie

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Very interesting insights, entropie! Out of curiosity, since you're with an INFJ, do you find your girlfriend balances you, or handles the emotional checkbook, as a friend of mine refers to it? Do you find yourself sharing emotions or being vulnerable only when absolutely necessary? How do you feel closeness to others? By sharing ideas? By being there for each other?

It's a miracle with my gf, I've never seen such an ability in a person ever in my life. She lives in a pretty idealistic and good world. She has dragged me into her world and now I am part of it. There are several things in speech she is allergic too and it always makes sense what she says, it's like she has found the perfect friendly way to realize communication between people. You know this show Dharma and Greg, that's me and her.

She's an idealist thru and thru and because she's a J she has this little perceptions and things she thinks about you are feeling at the moment. She for example tells me I am grumpy and I dont feel that way, then she gives evidence and 10 minutes later I realize I am grumpy ( or I dont realize :D ).

This Ni with a conviced ( J ) Fe combo, creates an emotional environment and bond between us all the time; the emotional environment is like the only thing there is for her, she doesnt even know how to apply cold logic or how to be phlegmatic in ones feelings.

This makes things very easy for me, but she has her major rules too of course. I was living alone and moved in with her and its the same thing like you described. We both have common hobbies but own hobbies too and she wants that we do these together and we do that.

The thing about me being discontinous with my self has given me the opportunity in life to adapt like a chamaeleon to new situations. And because I love her it was easy for me to change a lot and develop a new person from the old one. It's like a constant quest in life for self-actualization and improvement, about learning and growing, I like that very much and I am already getting my first grey hairs in the deep black mane what lets me look kinda distinctive and is a perfect reflection of a process of growth I have been thru since I met my girl.

My girl and me are very temeperamental beings so conflict doesnt stay with us for too long. We needed a lot of time till we balanced out the inharmoniousness there was between us in the beginning. We clashed often and ended our relationship over ten times and then found back to each other again.

I really do love her for her sensitive side that is not too sensitive and does only show for me. Meaning most of the time she's very tough and to the point, but I know her sensitive side. She became more calm over the years with me, I can bring her balance and regime. She wants that often, but when it comes to an overall look on our relationship we conduct a modern relationship of equality.

I think she loves me, because there's deep down a person I've always been and will always be. I have been thru so many universes in life, met so many people but the core never changed. I'ld type her to be a enneagram 6 and maybe that's what defines us. I love her sense for integrity and sense for totalitarism, meaning she does things always 100% and that gives me trust, security and stability.

I had on the weekend the sad duty to accompany her to Northern France ( she's from France ) to the funeral of her grandfather. This was the saddest thing I did so far in my life but I stood at her side. I was later that day given a huge compliment by her family: tho I speak no word in frensh and they dont speak english, they said I openly tried to communicate with them and respected all their rituals and habits. That was a thing they didnt witness often and they already had some experience with the german side of the family.

That was a huge compliment to me, I took with great pride and I think it plays a pivotal role in understanding our relationship, since she being an abstract mind compared with her french heritage has always been somewhat out of the loop where she was living, I sometimes have the ability to connect dimensions with each other.
 

StrawMan

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Many (most?) ENTPs are profoundly insecure, hence the need to impose themselves on their environment / make an impression. They need massive amounts of reassurance too.

I find this claim of being profoundly insecure a little bit odd. Could you give some examples how you think this manifests? When I was in my teens, I wanted some amount of positive feedback, but it seemed to me that others did too, or even more so.
 

Salomé

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I find this claim of being profoundly insecure a little bit odd. Could you give some examples how you think this manifests? When I was in my teens, I wanted some amount of positive feedback, but it seemed to me that others did too, or even more so.
Why ask the question if you don't think it applies? ;)

We really need to retitle this thread already. It's been hijacked by ENTP neediness.
 

EcK

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Hiding is insecurity. A loud and obnoxious, assertive person is hiding his insecurity, always, cause attack is the best defense.

Actually, the reason why my posts are generally short is exactly because I don't have the sort of insecurities that make me feel like it's a good investment of my time to explain in details in just how many ways 'people' are 'wrong' and short sighted.
I don't believe in the notion of 'truth' to begin with I mean, but there are different degrees and scales of 'correctness' when it comes to any form of argumentation. The congruency of the informational network if you will.
What I deny isn't the other person's point of view, which, believe me or not, I tend to get pretty well, even though I don't feel any need to aknowledge it when they're just being intellectually lazy and choosing the feel-go-about-myself solution rather than trying to see what's behind the tree and have a more holistic/systemic vision of the world.

I always welcome a stimulating conversation, but the fact is I rarely have enough incentives to do expand the air/key strokes. Don't take me wrong, there are some people here whom I consider to be smart and interesting, but mh, if you look at the forum for example, even though it has a rare concentration of the aforementioned type, it's also full of people for whom the quintessence of intellectual life is 'to have that deep sitted gut feeling that they are right', and explaining the sheer relativism of my thought to such people is, and has been a pure waste of patience.
I'm no healer or teacher, I don't feel the need to help people to grow the hell up if they didn't start that process themselves. Same reason why I don't think kids are fluffy and o so interesting, they're just, incomplete, in my view, as decent interlocutors.
 

Salomé

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Actually, the reason why my posts are generally short is exactly because I don't have the sort of insecurities that make me feel like it's a good investment of my time to explain in details in just how many ways 'people' are 'wrong' and short sighted.
I don't believe in the notion of 'truth' to begin with I mean, but there are different degrees and scales of 'correctness' when it comes to any form of argumentation. The congruency of the informational network if you will.
What I deny isn't the other person's point of view, which, believe me or not, I tend to get pretty well, even though I don't feel any need to aknowledge it when they're just being intellectually lazy and choosing the feel-go-about-myself solution rather than trying to see what's behind the tree and have a more holistic/systemic vision of the world.

I always welcome a stimulating conversation, but the fact is I rarely have enough incentives to do expand the air/key strokes. Don't take me wrong, there are some people here whom I consider to be smart and interesting, but mh, if you look at the forum for example, even though it has a rare concentration of the aforementioned type, it's also full of people for whom the quintessence of intellectual life is 'to have that deep sitted gut feeling that they are right', and explaining the sheer relativism of my thought to such people is, and has been a pure waste of patience.
I'm no healer or teacher, I don't feel the need to help people to grow the hell up if they didn't start that process themselves. Same reason why I don't think kids are fluffy and o so interesting, they're just, incomplete, in my view, as decent interlocutors.
OK. So it's not that you think you're better than everyone else, just that you actually ARE better than everyone else?
Thanks for taking the time to explain that in such detail. :cheese:
 

digesthisickness

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Actually, the reason why my posts are generally short is exactly because I don't have the sort of insecurities that make me feel like it's a good investment of my time to explain in details in just how many ways 'people' are 'wrong' and short sighted.
I don't believe in the notion of 'truth' to begin with I mean, but there are different degrees and scales of 'correctness' when it comes to any form of argumentation. The congruency of the informational network if you will.
What I deny isn't the other person's point of view, which, believe me or not, I tend to get pretty well, even though I don't feel any need to aknowledge it when they're just being intellectually lazy and choosing the feel-go-about-myself solution rather than trying to see what's behind the tree and have a more holistic/systemic vision of the world.

I always welcome a stimulating conversation, but the fact is I rarely have enough incentives to do expand the air/key strokes. Don't take me wrong, there are some people here whom I consider to be smart and interesting, but mh, if you look at the forum for example, even though it has a rare concentration of the aforementioned type, it's also full of people for whom the quintessence of intellectual life is 'to have that deep sitted gut feeling that they are right', and explaining the sheer relativism of my thought to such people is, and has been a pure waste of patience.
I'm no healer or teacher, I don't feel the need to help people to grow the hell up if they didn't start that process themselves. Same reason why I don't think kids are fluffy and o so interesting, they're just, incomplete, in my view, as decent interlocutors.

well said.
 

entropie

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Actually, the reason why my posts are generally short is exactly because I don't have the sort of insecurities that make me feel like it's a good investment of my time to explain in details in just how many ways 'people' are 'wrong' and short sighted.
I don't believe in the notion of 'truth' to begin with I mean, but there are different degrees and scales of 'correctness' when it comes to any form of argumentation. The congruency of the informational network if you will.
What I deny isn't the other person's point of view, which, believe me or not, I tend to get pretty well, even though I don't feel any need to aknowledge it when they're just being intellectually lazy and choosing the feel-go-about-myself solution rather than trying to see what's behind the tree and have a more holistic/systemic vision of the world.

I always welcome a stimulating conversation, but the fact is I rarely have enough incentives to do expand the air/key strokes. Don't take me wrong, there are some people here whom I consider to be smart and interesting, but mh, if you look at the forum for example, even though it has a rare concentration of the aforementioned type, it's also full of people for whom the quintessence of intellectual life is 'to have that deep sitted gut feeling that they are right', and explaining the sheer relativism of my thought to such people is, and has been a pure waste of patience.
I'm no healer or teacher, I don't feel the need to help people to grow the hell up if they didn't start that process themselves. Same reason why I don't think kids are fluffy and o so interesting, they're just, incomplete, in my view, as decent interlocutors.

I understand and I'ld phrase it that if you have achieved a certain level of maturity, especially when you have newly achieved it, you rather want to talk to people who are there too. Plus and that is maybe more what you mean, it's frustrating if the intercolutor even seems to be resistant against viewing something more holistically and you get a good idea about what this person can be like in real life.

I have grown up in some kind of Ghetto you can say. My family was always living near the poverty line and my friends back in the time nowadays are all criminal. I was the only one, who made it to University; but the time back then had influenced me forever.

I never seek intellectual stimulating conversations or how I call them: philosophical conversations. I like to dream about possibilities und to dive deep into the mechanics of the Universe but I hate discussing them. On the other hand I love teaching them, I am a pretty good teacher and I am sure that one day, I'll become a teacher as a job.

I am a big fan of the practical and pragmatical and I see the quest for finding intercolutors for intellectual exchange only not satisfieing. I am primarily looking for friends and I've always been in my life. People I like the most in that regards are the Ones, with which I can create something together, work on something and dont need to talk about personal stuff, rather joke around a lot and have the maximum amount of fun.

I do not consider myself to be an intellectual and a popular mbti question which goes like "Do you want to be considered as a person with the ability to develop visions or as a person with a great heart ?" , I always answered with the later option.

With the people I grew up, I had great responsibilities, they came to me for personal advice, guidance and often they made me their leader, cause I really was able to help them. And even nowadays in a job, I am on my way to become a leader again, because of my knowledge and the help I can give others.

I do love this really, this totally an entp thing, being admired but not too much. But it's a thing you dont speak about or you will destroy it. It's like a gang of people, with one person having the masterplan, which protects everyone in the gang.

I dont know but I like it to be here. I definitly have a god-complex and I am still not sure if I am not entj or estj but as long as I wont hurt anyone deliberatly, I think its ok for me to stay who I am.
 

EcK

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oh. Intellectuals as a class of people are generally people I define as sucking at everything else and assuming that it makes them good at 'being intellectuals'.
At least the vast majority. I was talking about one's intellectual life. Not the same thing.

You can have a really interesting talk about anything really. The issue is most of the time people start a conversation about something they know about, and if I can be bothered it takes about 15 seconds tops to start feeling the limits of their views. So I grew 'blasé' with time.
 
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