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  1. #61
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Priam, the "I'm mad as hell and I don't have to take this anymore!" INTP
    *bows before the example of INTP wisdom*
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  2. #62
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  3. #63
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
    Oh, I'm usually fine when they do this. It's when they have outbursts of extremely weird and random emotions that they freak me out. It's because I have no idea what triggered them, or how to react to them. Generally it just makes me want to get away from them... quickly.

    But I don't think attaching and then turning off your emotions makes you weird or anything, as stressful as they are for you to focus on. From what I've seen, INTP's usually think emotions don't make sense. But in reality, I think it's just that their emotions are often jumbled and don't make sense (because they come from the inferior), so they assume that other people's emotions don't either.

    But I kind of understand what Jennifer said about attaching emotions to particular actions. For instance, if I was angry because I believed a person thought one thing about me, I wouldn't remain angry if I realized they didn't think that. I also would usually tend not to react differently to everyone simply because I was angry with one person. I would show irritation towards that person, and still be nice to everyone else. That behavior of mine really confuses some Fi users.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Oh, I'm usually fine when they do this. It's when they have outbursts of extremely weird and random emotions that they freak me out. It's because I have no idea what triggered them, or how to react to them. Generally it just makes me want to get away from them... quickly.
    I think things tend to percolate longer for me than most others, so a wide range of experiential emotions might suddenly bubble up from the depths and make themselves known. I would say a key INTP lesson to be learned is how to appropriately vent these things when they happen, whether that be slowly rather than suddenly exploding or finding a friend who knows the coming rant is utterly appropos of nothing current. The tendency itself is, to my mind, neither healthy or unhealthy, only how it is handled.

    But I don't think attaching and then turning off your emotions makes you weird or anything, as stressful as they are for you to focus on. From what I've seen, INTP's usually think emotions don't make sense. But in reality, I think it's just that their emotions are often jumbled and don't make sense (because they come from the inferior), so they assume that other people's emotions don't either.
    Actually I find I'm pretty adept at making sense of my emotions, or lack thereof, without trying to impose some framework on them. I think the crucial difference is that emotions make sense, but they are not logically driven. It makes sense to be angry over a crappy day, but the logical thing would be to let it go and move on. In confusing one with the other can rest a lot of pain and suffering. Important Axiom #1: Humans are not, and will never be, logical by nature.

    It sucks, but whatcha gonna do? It's an imperfect world; screws fall out all the time.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  5. #65
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Yes, pretty much. I feel like the difference is not one of end result, but rather road to acheive it, and I often feel disdained by feelers because somehow I'm doing it in an "unnatural" or "freaky" way. One reason why I don't disclose my inner workings in public is exactly the sort of judgementalism that I feel from some posts on this board, the sense that I can not be anything but a freakish, disconnected robot. If I engage my emotions around others, empathize and reach out, somehow I'm doing it in an "inappropriate" manner, but if I shut them down then somehow I'm this cold, unfeeling android who has no redeeming value except in my "narrow" skillset.
    You're right that the end result counts. It's totally ok to use rationalized empathy as well as my ISTP husband uses selective empathy.
    I think it is impressive that you have taken the extra effort to understand empathy and other people's emotions.

  6. #66
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    I think the largest and most common problem with an INTP dealing with their own emotions is their lack of focus upon them. To an INTP mindset, emotion provides little clarity and we are all to aware that our emotional state is different from others (I have to wonder if the best false laughs are from these kinds of people?) ergo any conclusions we base on them are terribly subjective and not truth. Hell emotions flex and wane within a person so they're not even subjective truth except within the tight definition of now.

    That's another thing which has plagued me in particular. I know what an orange is. Someone pointed one out and said "that's an orange". What is "happy"? I can measure contentment because I have a lack of wants but happiness is a presence of something. Of course I know when I'm deliriously happy but that's a sledgehammer. What about kinda pleased?

    I think that after about 15-20 years mulling over such things I came to the conclusion that it didn't matter. I've started just labelling myself as I see fit and simply adjust the label if it's taken with the wrong meaning. Hell if emotions change lots then why try and define it perfectly for just one moment in time? It's illogical.

    Anyhow, back to the original point, without any focus on emotional state or recognition of the importance or value of those feelings they tend to get left unresolved. That's what produces the explosion. I used to do that quite a bit when I found myself dealing with two ESTPs and an ENFJ who all thought that going out was just what I needed to help me "come out of my shell". They did not know they were trying to shuck me out of where I wanted to be and I (in my wisdom) did not tell them (hence avoiding the emotional confrontation). Only after a long while did the agreement come in. The agreement was that I state my objection from the start. Now all I get complained at for is dismissing ideas but they can't have it all roads

    I guess in truth the main problem I overcame in regard to having an F which is either on or off was honesty and transparency. I found that if I volunteered information which I previously would have guarded and let people see my workings rather than try to hide everything and appear invulnerable, I no longer was paranoid about my defences failing. It's not like I don't have any defences now but they're more based on handling incoming threats rather than trying to deflect them or avoid the threat altogether.

    It's not a group hug kind of spiritual guidebook or nothing (yet) but from hindsight I think it's what helped me.

    It seems that getting stuck in a house full of people from loud and large families did the trick. I had to either go out and meet quiet people or try to become as loud and brash as my house mates.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #67
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think the largest and most common problem with an INTP dealing with their own emotions is their lack of focus upon them. To an INTP mindset, emotion provides little clarity and we are all to aware that our emotional state is different from others (I have to wonder if the best false laughs are from these kinds of people?) ergo any conclusions we base on them are terribly subjective and not truth. Hell emotions flex and wane within a person so they're not even subjective truth except within the tight definition of now.

    That's another thing which has plagued me in particular. I know what an orange is. Someone pointed one out and said "that's an orange". What is "happy"? I can measure contentment because I have a lack of wants but happiness is a presence of something. Of course I know when I'm deliriously happy but that's a sledgehammer. What about kinda pleased?

    I think that after about 15-20 years mulling over such things I came to the conclusion that it didn't matter. I've started just labelling myself as I see fit and simply adjust the label if it's taken with the wrong meaning. Hell if emotions change lots then why try and define it perfectly for just one moment in time? It's illogical.

    Anyhow, back to the original point, without any focus on emotional state or recognition of the importance or value of those feelings they tend to get left unresolved. That's what produces the explosion. I used to do that quite a bit when I found myself dealing with two ESTPs and an ENFJ who all thought that going out was just what I needed to help me "come out of my shell". They did not know they were trying to shuck me out of where I wanted to be and I (in my wisdom) did not tell them (hence avoiding the emotional confrontation). Only after a long while did the agreement come in. The agreement was that I state my objection from the start. Now all I get complained at for is dismissing ideas but they can't have it all roads

    I guess in truth the main problem I overcame in regard to having an F which is either on or off was honesty and transparency. I found that if I volunteered information which I previously would have guarded and let people see my workings rather than try to hide everything and appear invulnerable, I no longer was paranoid about my defences failing. It's not like I don't have any defences now but they're more based on handling incoming threats rather than trying to deflect them or avoid the threat altogether.

    It's not a group hug kind of spiritual guidebook or nothing (yet) but from hindsight I think it's what helped me.

    It seems that getting stuck in a house full of people from loud and large families did the trick. I had to either go out and meet quiet people or try to become as loud and brash as my house mates.
    The emotion comes as a surprise.
    If you do not know how to deal you do not deal.

    It does not mean you are off the hook.
    You think you are.

    Verdict: A benighted moron.
    Free of charge.

  8. #68
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The emotion comes as a surprise.
    If you do not know how to deal you do not deal.

    It does not mean you are off the hook.
    You think you are.

    Verdict: A benighted moron.
    Free of charge.
    The emotion comes as a surprise because you never look for "how do I feel about this" whilst scanning over the latest information on multi hydro distillate turbines. It's there. It's just sneaky. We all know that feelings and all these Fs are sneaky

    Oh and you definitely get knighted by some of them. Straight over the head. Except these one's got rid of the sword in favour of a two handed maul!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #69
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The emotion comes as a surprise because you never look for "how do I feel about this" whilst scanning over the latest information on multi hydro distillate turbines. It's there. It's just sneaky. We all know that feelings and all these Fs are sneaky

    Oh and you definitely get knighted by some of them. Straight over the head. Except these one's got rid of the sword in favour of a two handed maul!
    The mece is near at hand.
    The maul is somewhere else.

    Choose the mece.

  10. #70
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The mece is near at hand.
    The maul is somewhere else.

    Choose the mece.
    Isn't that precisely the reason why the maul hits so hard? Too much thinking about division and not enough thinking about the integration.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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