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  1. #51
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
    Getting it to shut up can sometimes be a problem, however.

    Your point about weighing damage also makes sense...though I've noticed that I tend to have a higher pain tolerance than most, and that may affect how I weigh such things.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  2. #52
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    Your point about weighing damage also makes sense...though I've noticed that I tend to have a higher pain tolerance than most, and that may affect how I weigh such things.
    On the flipside, ability to tolerate pain does not make such pain justified. Why own such burdens just because others thrust them on you? Sometimes, to be good friends, we have to absorb the suffering of others', but I think I tend to believe those circumstances are more frequent than is really the case. There are many times when being a good person means actively reflecting and rejecting the ideas and hurtful emotions, because just as much as we don't need that bullshit, the person who refuses to own does. Sometimes, as hard as it may seem, people need pain to grow in themselves... and we have to inflict it.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  3. #53
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    htb, nice phrase, "stillborn romance". Do you write?
    Yes, and in fact I now get paid to do it. The phrase is a euphemism, I suppose.

    I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity, to think through first vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.
    In part, but I can't discount the INTP's sudden loss at communication. Word choice became simple, and not artful but vague. A look at personal writing forwarded by intermediaries confirmed this as guileless; so I've always interpreted it as a debilitating unfamiliarity. And, too, I have never seen this behavior in any other type. Even ISTPs have an intuition for human behavior.

    The trouble has, of course, been invited by way of me, myself, trying to make more of an INTP than a competent specialist in a given field. Judging from experience, the resulting interaction warrants no more than such a relationship.

  4. #54
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Yes, and in fact I now get paid to do it. The phrase is a euphemism, I suppose.
    Interesting that. INTJ/ENTJ(When the switch?) poets would be rare. Any chance of seeing your work?

    In part, but I can't discount the INTP's sudden loss at communication. Word choice became simple, and not artful but vague. A look at personal writing forwarded by intermediaries confirmed this as guileless; so I've always interpreted it as a debilitating unfamiliarity. And, too, I have never seen this behavior in any other type. Even ISTPs have an intuition for human behavior.
    I'd think the detachment of an INTP can come across as unfamiliarity and a lack of intuition on human behaviour. But a failure to act on an understanding does not mean a failure in understanding. Does that make sense?

    I'd think they understand humans on a theoretical level deeply, that would be the intellectual empathy Priam speaks of. But they are easily overwhelmed by emotions and an inability to express it, unless within a secure zone. The inability to gauge emotional distances is the hardest part to overcome, to me, personally, in dealing with an INTP.

    The vagueness is that to me. Uncertainty how to proceed, and a keeping of options open while they try to process the information.

    The trouble has, of course, been invited by way of me, myself, trying to make more of an INTP than a competent specialist in a given field. Judging from experience, the resulting interaction warrants no more than such a relationship.
    I think I lost you here?

  5. #55
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Interesting that. INTJ/ENTJ(When the switch?) poets would be rare. Any chance of seeing your work?
    Maverick pointed out the ongoing discrepancy after I posted results of a recent self-administered test, and I had been considering the change, so I carried it out. I don't care much for poetry, but you can begin a general review of my work by following the link on my profile.

    The vagueness is that to me. Uncertainty how to proceed, and a keeping of options open while they try to process the information.
    Yes. If that's what this is, it's more of IxxPs' inclinations that I would rather not contend with on a personal or dependent level.

    I think I lost you here?
    I was assuming blame for contending, as noted above, anyway.

  6. #56
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
    So you rationalize empathy.

  7. #57
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    Really great thread. You guys are providing some great insight for us Feelers into how INTPs deal with emotions.

  8. #58
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    So you rationalize empathy.
    Maybe...anything beyond that I'm sure to do while I'm alone. It's scary.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  9. #59
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    This shows two different INTP perspectives. One of them has little self-respect and will do what's asked of them to maintain stability and get what they want for the moment, and another seems more careful about what they'll tolerate from others and what they won't.
    I do not even know if it's two different types.

    The common denominator between the two is "autonomy" -- freedom to do and get what I want most. To keep the life I want, if I don't think I can get it on my own, I am willing to make concessions... knowing at any time that I can walk. But if I think I can get what I want and don't need to comply with what is requested of me, I will walk.

    INTPs generally do not like the emotional confrontation that comes with walking and will range from indifference (finding it just bothersome) to avoidance (finding it emotionally unsettling)... so they usually try to avoid making scene when they walk out.

    But it is all calculated: Do I get what I want if I do this, and is it worth the cost to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    We were settling a stillborn romance -- the discussion my initiative, of course -- and I defended an acerbic statement I'd made in front of others. She thought I was still angry. I said I wasn't; and as if she were reformatting a disk, or replacing a link to a cascading style sheet, she replied, "then I'll no longer assume you're acting out of a grudge." Damnedest thing.
    lol... yup.

    What is funny is that I just cannot get my mind around how odd it looks to others. I know that the types are all different... but it's so simple: If you provide information that I can trust, then I just accept it and update the databanks. Emotions can be boxed up and just set aside, because they are attached to the data rather than living as things with their own lives. So when the data is updated, any emotions attached are updated as well.

    I just did it recently. I thought someone was mad at me, and that upset me, and when I asked them about it and they said we were fine, I was like, "well, okay," because I had felt out the comment and accepted it as true and that's the end of it. If you tell me what your motivations were and I feel there is no inconsistency there (i.e., I can believe you), then I just go with it.

    I wonder which types are best at holding grudges.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #60
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    So you rationalize empathy.
    Yes, pretty much. I feel like the difference is not one of end result, but rather road to acheive it, and I often feel disdained by feelers because somehow I'm doing it in an "unnatural" or "freaky" way. One reason why I don't disclose my inner workings in public is exactly the sort of judgementalism that I feel from some posts on this board, the sense that I can not be anything but a freakish, disconnected robot. If I engage my emotions around others, empathize and reach out, somehow I'm doing it in an "inappropriate" manner, but if I shut them down then somehow I'm this cold, unfeeling android who has no redeeming value except in my "narrow" skillset.

    To take an excellent movie out of context, I've decided to say "I'm a human being, goddammit! My life, my way of doing things has value!", but it still hurts every time I have to fight this meme.

    Priam, the "I'm mad as hell and I don't have to take this anymore!" INTP
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

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