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  1. #41
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrailway View Post
    Except that coffee is, as wildcat says, a very important element before making any move towards any direction, things are not usually as simple as to or crawl either move to a different system. If your objective is to simply have a coffee and the system is relatively good on the whole, then you just do what you have to do to achieve the goal. If you want to change system anyways but you need what you can get from the existent system before making the move, then you do again what the system requires you to do.
    It is called: play with their rules to take what you need from them.

    On a side note, I can't say I'd crawl, but I certainly could go on great lengths in order to have my coffee. Especially if it's the morning coffee.
    Appreciated.
    It can have its uses though.

    A History.
    Nikita Sergejewich Chrutchov was a squat man with short legs. He was the Party boss in the Ukraine.
    One day Stalin invited him to supper.

    During the supper Stalin asked him to dance the Russian dance Ripaschka.
    A very difficult exercise even to a man less pudgy than Chrutchov.

    Nikita Sergejewich did dance Ripaschka. Everybody laughed. He looked ridiculous.

    Chrutchov said later: When Stalin tells you to dance Ripaschka, a wise man dances Ripaschka.

  2. #42
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I forgot to cup my hands. But I can cup them now if you want.
    The brew you were asking for has long since gone cold. It -- it just wouldn't be the same.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Priam View Post
    I think the difference is in priorities. I would say, as a rule of thumb, that INTPs would much rather give ground to others' emotions than take up others' space with our own. It's all about placidity, ease, calm in the outside world... but that's not being true to our own emotions. Sometimes to truly engage what we're feeling, doors need to be kicked down and fires need to be set! Compassion and support are "easy" emotions (for me at least), while acknowledging and venting burning, illogical rage takes more work! In other words: it's a strain to realize that occassionally hurting others is a key component of healing your emotional self.
    What exactly to you mean by "hurting" others?

    I have no issues with offending people, but doing real harm to others is not something I can bring myself to do. Are you saying that this is necessary?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #44
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What exactly to you mean by "hurting" others?

    I have no issues with offending people, but doing real harm to others is not something I can bring myself to do. Are you saying that this is necessary?
    I'm pretty sure I'd say this sober, but I'm not currently so I reserve the right to contradict myself later.

    Yes.

    The most momentous thing I have learned about myself and humanity as a whole is that causing pain for others is occassionally warranted and even necessary. It's an act of weighing damage, certainly, but I feel like INTPs tend to weight the damage to others far more heavily than we would damage to ourselves, when in reality they are both equally hurtful. Sometimes the sheer devastation being wrought upon our own psyches warrants inflicting major shocks, even scarring, upon another. To me, there are two different categories:

    Rejecting the toxicity of others: I have disowned my grandpa. He's manic depressive, surly, outrageously emotionally violent to those around him at unpredictable times! Yet I know he desperately misses my company and will probably go to his grave wanting to see me again, without fully grasping why that isn't possible. That knowledge hurts me deeply, but I also know the personal damage of being present in his life would be far more extensive. My worth is equal to his, so I no longer associate with him knowingly.

    Rejecting the toxicity in myself: Sometimes what I am feeling must be vented, and there is simply no easy or painless way to do so. In order to heal myself, I must cut into another. Does this mean I enjoy the pain I inflict? Absolutely not! I do everything I can to avoid or mitigate that when possible. Yet it is my right not to own a burden, even if rejecting it means pushing the toxic onto the one who does need to deal. Why should I lug the emotional weight that is not mine to own? Nobody is saved, nobody is healed... all I do is perpetuate the status quo.

    Does any of that make sense? I'm two bottles of wine and three glasses of port down the drain, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    The brew you were asking for has long since gone cold. It -- it just wouldn't be the same.
    Not to mention the awesome biological changes that has taken place in the cup.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Oh, I'd agree that INTP's tend to have emotions... just not the ones you'd like them to have, or would expect them to have. They seem to overreact to insignificant expectations and can be oblivious to glaringly obvious ones, from what I can tell. And I think this improves with effort, over time. (This can apply to many other Introverted types as well.)
    I completely agree with your assessment! The INTP that I dated was emotionless about some situations (breaking up with girl friends).....and would be out of control at times that seemed less appropriate (sobbing during a movie....which is not out of the norm, but the circumstances were unusual).

  7. #47
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I have been told by many people that I am remarkably good at understanding others, and that I can explicate that understanding in a clear and concise manner. Consequently, I have frequently acted in a counselor capacity to others, and I am acutely aware that this often involves conscious and calculated manipulation. This is not nefarious or ill-intended manipulation, but nonetheless I do intend to manipulate the emotional state and thoughts of others, and do so quite successfully, or so I am told.

    In fact, I am fascinated by people, their emotions, feelings, customs, habits, predelictions, theories, incentives, motives, etc. and have invested a great deal of time studying morality and ethics. For example, some would say that I am interested in economics, but this is not quite right. Instead, I am interested in the relationships which hold between people, their well-being, conduct and the social rules which govern that. My attitude is like that of Adam Smith, who never considered himself an economist, but rather a moral philosopher.

    The purpose of my writing this, is to draw attention to the fact that INTPs are often said to be uninterested, or even incapable of dealing with these issues. This view, which perhaps aligns with the common assumption that reason and emotion are inherently incompatible, with each reigning over seperate magisteria, is at odds with my life, interests, hobbies, attitude and personal experience.

    There is, perhaps, a source of this confusion, in that INTPs frequently appear to be socially incompetent and awkward. There is some truth in this for me. I am not always aware of social trends, local customs, and my absent-mindedness frequently is interpreted as rudeness. I also often choose to avoid many social engagements. Moreover, I can be somewhat undiplomatic, intentionally so, and many mistake this for not understanding the "appropriate" behaviour.
    Anyway, I was just posting to see if anyone else had any similar experiences. In any case, I think it is a persistent myth that those who test INTP are both emotionally and socially as deaf, dumb and blind as many suggest.

    (Note: I almost always test as an INTP, very occasionally as ENTP or INTJ).
    I'm not certain that emotions and reason are that easily divorced from each other IRL - I think that's where the general perception of INTPs as being cold/socially inept stems from:

    INTPs (of all maturity levels, but particularly young ones) can be detached from emotions, I think. They see them as some strange critters with two horns, separate from themselves - they approach most emotions framed by thought first, vs experience relation. This is the thing which can make them good counsellors - that detachment affords the distance for clear thinking. But it can be a double-edged sword - sometimes others just want their feelings to be validated, and not analysed? And on another note, feelings are perceived as weaknesses, simply.

    This does not mean they do not feel deeply. Of all types, I think the INTP suffers from emotions the most, given a tendency to feel it all, or not at all - there's very little middle road, is there?

    Re social ineptness - Much of it is a certain criticality they turn on others, but mostly on themselves? I daresay an INTP at a function would criticise the need to greet everyone and spend time in social chitchat as banalities, but at the same time, they'd think they can do that if they want to. And when they do it, they'll spend the night analysing their performance later. I think INTPs do best in smaller functions when there's less sensory inputs - so they're given time to process and respond. They'd dislike social functions when there's a lack of depth and emphasis on form, I believe.

    Re: perceptions of others. I guess that is simply because you know the INTP understands the form. But they do not follow it as they see little value in preserving the form. To most others, a lack of action in accordance to what is understood, simply means a failure to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    It's an analogy, you two.

    There has to be someone with real-life experience with INTPs who recognizes this. One moment, they are laughing, interacting -- indistinguishable from the rest. Ask them the wrong question, and they're stultified.
    htb, nice phrase, "stillborn romance". Do you write?

    I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity, to think through first vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.

    Does that make sense?

    *aelan brews wildcat a new cup of coffee*

  8. #48
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    I think what you're referring to is a retreat effect. It is not that they've failed to grasp what you've said and it is off their maps hence they do not know how to act. I think it is precisely because they sense a certain danger in where you're going, that they retreat. Perhaps, a protection of pride/dignity vs falling into the weakness of betraying their emotions.

    Does that make sense?
    There we go! I don't shut down when baffled by something; I'm more likely to charge ahead. I want to understand this phenomenon, not run away from it. I will shut up and shut down when feeling annoyed, sad or hurt, seeking a private space to reflect without the outside world butting in. It's not that I view emotions as the enemy, indeed I consider them a great ally, but just that I cannot multitask a conversation and growing intense feelings, so one has to go.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

  9. #49
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I have been told by many people that I am remarkably good at understanding others, and that I can explicate that understanding in a clear and concise manner. Consequently, I have frequently acted in a counselor capacity to others, and I am acutely aware that this often involves conscious and calculated manipulation. This is not nefarious or ill-intended manipulation, but nonetheless I do intend to manipulate the emotional state and thoughts of others, and do so quite successfully, or so I am told.
    I could repeat my story of INTP who thought he could manipulate people but I won’t. The thing is that you cannot think feelings you have to feel them. I wouldn’t call manipulation as good counselling on the contrary. Many times people manipulated can see it though and most of people do not appreciate it.

    In fact, I am fascinated by people, their emotions, feelings, customs, habits, predelictions, theories, incentives, motives, etc. and have invested a great deal of time studying morality and ethics. For example, some would say that I am interested in economics, but this is not quite right. Instead, I am interested in the relationships which hold between people, their well-being, conduct and the social rules which govern that. My attitude is like that of Adam Smith, who never considered himself an economist, but rather a moral philosopher.
    There is a difference between the observer of the feelings and the person who experiences the feelings of others (empathy). INTP's are totally able to observe but how about feeling what other people are feeling? (I don’t know, just asking.)

  10. #50
    Senior Member Priam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    There is a difference between the observer of the feelings and the person who experiences the feelings of others (empathy). INTP's are totally able to observe but how about feeling what other people are feeling? (I don’t know, just asking.)
    Yes. I think people get confused about INTPs in this area, so I'd like to explain "intellectual empathy" and see if it resonates with any others out there or if I'm just an outlier. I deeply empathize with others, but what makes it different from INFP is it is a thinking connection, rather than a feeling. I acheive empathy via thought-experiment by putting myself in the circumstances another is facing and feeling the emotions evoked. For whatever reason, this activity usually puts me in the same place as the other person. The major difference is that this is not instinctual, but rather a skill to be developed.
    "The subject chooses to sit in shadow and search for wisdom by reflecting upon his trial. The problem is not that he is cold and wet, but that cold and wet seems problematic, so he embraces those hardships in order to best them."

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