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  1. #41
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Hey, can we see some examples?
    I think it helps to actually tie this to actual manifestations rather than continuously abstracting it -- it's easy for it to become divorced from practical understanding.

    Sim, for example: what "externalized ideal that is unrelated to any internal standard" is driving you?
    Basically, button pushing and getting reactions from other people/the theoretical environment I'm playing in. Ne is validated externally. It needs external input, be it from other people or just some other kind of interaction with things outside the self, to know whether its broad-sweeping connections have any sort of merit.

    I feel most at home when I'm constantly changing, experimenting, pushing buttons and getting new information from the inherently unpredictable results. It makes me feel validated when I'm able to explain the connections between everything that I see in ways that others pick up on and identify with.

    Does this make sense to you? (hehehe...)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #42
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Introverts draw their most dominant perspective from subjective internal sources, seeking to live up to an internalized ideal that is unrelated to any external standard.
    Interesting perspective- this is the first time I've come across these statements I can see some truth in it- I definitely am more driven by internal values.

    So how do you explain, after any extended external stimulation, I can't wait to be by myself? I'm one of those intraverts who is mistaken for an extravert because I am very social and outgoing in a lot of respects. I love it while it's going on, but after it's said and done it's time to shut down!!?!?

  3. #43
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    If I've interpreted Carl Jung correctly it is possible.

    "There is, finally, a third group... the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man...
    He constitutes the extensive middle group... I call the first group extraverted and the second group introverted"

    -Carl Jung.

    "There is no such thing as a pure extrovert or a pure introvert.
    Such a man would be in the lunatic asylum.
    They are only terms to designate..., a certain tendency....the tendency to be more influenced by environmental factors, or more influenced by the subjective factor, that's all.
    There are people who are fairly well balanced and are just as much influenced from within as from without, or just as little".

    - Carl Jung


    There are three dimensions including extravert, introvert, and ambivert (between the two extremes).
    (Howard, Pierce J., PhD. The Owner’s Manual for the Brain. P418-440. GA: Bard Press, 1994, 2000.)

  4. #44
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I did!

  5. #45
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    I'm losing my mind. After reading all of this, I have no freaking idea whether I'm an ENTP or INTP.

    The one-upness is definitely me (I'm highly competetive). I also love arguing just for the sake of it, its fun!

    I also hang around as long as there is a possibility to grow, when that ends, I move onto another person (LOL LIKE A PARASITE!)

  6. #46
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "There is, finally, a third group... the most numerous and includes the less differentiated normal man...
    He constitutes the extensive middle group... I call the first group extraverted and the second group introverted"

    -Carl Jung.

    "There is no such thing as a pure extrovert or a pure introvert.
    Such a man would be in the lunatic asylum.
    They are only terms to designate..., a certain tendency....the tendency to be more influenced by environmental factors, or more influenced by the subjective factor, that's all.
    There are people who are fairly well balanced and are just as much influenced from within as from without, or just as little".

    - Carl Jung


    There are three dimensions including extravert, introvert, and ambivert (between the two extremes).
    (Howard, Pierce J., PhD. The Owner’s Manual for the Brain. P418-440. GA: Bard Press, 1994, 2000.)
    By this definition, are we not all "ambiverts" because we all have both introverted and extroverted perspectives? If by "ambivert" one simply means, "Influenced by both internal and external stimuli", then we are all obviously ambiverts.

    Since Jung makes the distinction here that extrovert, introvert, and ambivert are all different categories, I don't think he intended to say that everyone is an ambivert simply because everyone has both kinds of perspectives. After all, isn't everyone somewhere "between the two extremes"?

    It seems to me he's saying that people very far to the E end are extroverts, while those very far to the I end are introverts, and those relatively closer to the center are ambiverts...this does not seem to imply that ambiverts are precisely in the very center, just that they are closer to it than introverts or extroverts.

    I believe the question asked here was something to the effect of, "Is it possible to be 100% perfectly balanced between introversion and extroversion?" and the answer to that still seems likely to be no.

    Jung's use of the phrase "fairly well balanced" seems telling here--if he intended to say that such people are perfectly well-balanced, why would he use the qualifying term "fairly"? Does this imply that, while many people are pretty well-balanced, no one is precisely in the middle of that spectrum?

    His phrasing here is rather tricky to interpret. He does say that "some people are just as influenced from within as without", but he also uses the term "fairly" to qualify his description of how balanced ambiverts are. As I said, "fairly balanced" doesn't seem to imply "perfectly balanced."

    Jung's explanation here seems characteristically ambiguous.

    NOTE: When I referred to ambiversion as "a myth", I was taking the term "ambivert" to mean "perfectly balanced between introversion and extroversion", as opposed to Jung's use of the term, where he simply seems to mean, "relatively close to the center of the spectrum."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by myrow View Post
    I'm losing my mind. After reading all of this, I have no freaking idea whether I'm an ENTP or INTP.

    The one-upness is definitely me (I'm highly competetive). I also love arguing just for the sake of it, its fun!

    I also hang around as long as there is a possibility to grow, when that ends, I move onto another person (LOL LIKE A PARASITE!)
    Do you thrive on external feedback? Do you need external stimulation/validation?

    I knew this guy once who said he could sit alone in a room with white walls for quite some time and be quite happy. Not me, man. NO SIR.

    And like I said, when I thought about being a novelist, the idea of having *no* external feedback for long stretches of time freaked me out. It was a way for me to see my own extroversion, even when I have a hard time seeing it in a social context.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Do you thrive on external feedback? Do you need external stimulation/validation?

    I knew this guy once who said he could sit alone in a room with white walls for quite some time and be quite happy. Not me, man. NO SIR.

    And like I said, when I thought about being a novelist, the idea of having *no* external feedback for long stretches of time freaked me out. It was a way for me to see my own extroversion, even when I have a hard time seeing it in a social context.
    I have this "drive" that I constant need validation from another person, I need people to compare to so I know that I'm constantly growing physically, mentally, academically (what I'd describe as that one-upmanship, I always try to be better than myself and the person next door). On the other hand, sometimes I need time alone to think things through, plan things out and "recharge" so I can compete with the world the next day! Sitting in a room with white walls? Not happening - I'd be bored out of my mind =p . I hope this answers your question.

  9. #49
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    Jung on introversion:

    "Everyone whose attitude is introverted thinks, feels, and acts in a way that clearly demonstrates that the subject is the prime motivating factor and that the object is of secondary importance."

    "Always he has to prove that everything he does rests on his own decisions and convictions, and never because he is influenced by anyone, or desires to please or conciliate some person or opinion."

    "In a large gathering he feels lonely and lost. The more crowded it is, the greater becomes his resistance. He is not in the least "with it," and has no love of enthusiastic get-togethers. He is not a good mixer. What he does, he does in his own way, barricading himself against influences from outside. . . . Under normal conditions he is pessimistic and worried, because the world and human beings are not in the least good but crush him. . . .His own world is a safe harbour, a carefully tended and walled-in garden, closed to the public and hidden from prying eyes. His own company is the best."

    And extraversion:

    "Extraversion is characterized by interest in the external object, responsiveness, and a ready acceptance of external happenings, a desire to influence and be influenced by events, a need to join in and get "with it," the capacity to endure bustle and noise of every kind, and actually find them enjoyable, constant attention to the surrounding world, the cultivation of friends and acquaintances, none too carefully selected, and finally by the great importance attached to the figure one cuts."

    "The extravert's philosophy of life and his ethics are as a rule of a highly collective nature with a strong streak of altruism, and his conscience is in large measure dependent on public opinion."

    "He has no secrets he has not long since shared with others. Should something unmentionable nevertheless befall him, he prefers to forget it. Anything that might tarnish the parade of optimism and positivism is avoided. Whatever he thinks, intends, and does is displayed with conviction and warmth."

    The wording should be taken figurative as he tries to sum the terms up. As an example: Not all extraverts are dependent on public oppinion, but compared to the introverts they to great extends are. Also look at the words "in large measure", that mean some are more influenced by it than others.

  10. #50
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    I guess I'm a loner extrovert =P

    Or I simply push people away once I get bored of them.

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