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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I dunno, entropie -- I found it a relief to realize I wasn't supposed to be an extrovert, and so I could just set aside their judgments of me for being different than them. In fact, that was the role MBTI in general played in my life: For many years I felt different and an "anomaly" in my world, then I found out that I was just normal but different and that who I was was "okay."

    Some people will use that an excuse for something, but it can also be a great encouragement.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    If you are in a situation that makes more use of your extroverted function you'd tend to feel more extroverted. And vice versa. Your focus would change.
    I'm leaning towards this in some ways. It's situational. It's about objects moving through a focal point. I think that the wider the gaze, the more objects you are extraverted towards and vice versa. As I came across the fact that extraversion and introversion, in one sense, is based mainly on the value you place in an object, and sinse our perception is that not all objects are equal to each other, and at some points in time you are more focused on yourself and less on the outer world you switch in between Extraversion and Introversion accordingly, but never at the same time. To be both an I and E at the same time in the view of functions would mean that you would be able to think about an idea and have already thought about it at the same time, which isn't possible. So, yes, but not at the same time and depending on the focal points range not in the same quantity.

  3. #33
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    I find it freeing to acknowledge that Im something specific, it makes me appreciate the times when Im not introverting. But if one says "Im introverted accept me as that" then yes I would say they have a problem. Typology should not be a comfort blanket but recognition of your faults and developement of those sides that you lack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I dunno, entropie -- I found it a relief to realize I wasn't supposed to be an extrovert, and so I could just set aside their judgments of me for being different than them. In fact, that was the role MBTI in general played in my life: For many years I felt different and an "anomaly" in my world, then I found out that I was just normal but different and that who I was was "okay."

    Some people will use that an excuse for something, but it can also be a great encouragement.
    Ok I hear ya. I havent thought that one through .

    Sorry Morgan for being picky the moment I read your post someone asked me something real stupid at work, so the anger transfer done by me wasnt necessary.

    I have this long talks with my infj in which I try to really understand at least something. She's totally anti any labeling system. So the first time I for example started to present her the mbti system she laied out all the psychologial diseases from which people could suffer who label themselves in some unusual way. The thing but is, she on the other hand is totally into astrology and on the same issue always justifies things she did bad at, with being diagnosed to have ADS. So I think too there's a fine line between a real quest for the self or an excuse for ones own problems. I came here due to no other reason than a self quest and knowing today that I am quite assertive and only hear what I want to hear, I can safely say now at least in the understanding of where my mind gathers its information from, I am mbti extroverted.

    The real problem is and maybe thats a thing many entps face: you never belong. Today this has become different but back then, I wasnt accepted in the nerds club, cause I am only half nerd and I wasnt accepted in the cool boys club cause I was half nerd. Everyone wants to belong and an E-type maybe moreso, so I always took my own way and was though I am a pussy accepted partly in the tough boys club and got invited to some tabletop game evenings to the nerds tho I couldnt take their stuff serious all the time. On top of all that tho, the whole world would type me to be very socially introvert. I cant really talk the usual talk with people and I am always behaving dumb in public or different what at least makes people laugh but doesnt really make them take me serious.

    Then mbti came along and typed me extraverted. Ok obviously there's a difference in the meaning of the words dependant on the context but I think somewhere on the way I lost my belief in words and just said I am what I am now and no definition anywhere on the world I will ever listen to and let me brainwash again. I'll only decide for myself now whats right and wrong and not take so much regard on what others likie me to be. Somewhere then I threw definitions like E/I for myself over board.

    But without them, I'ld have probably not gotten there, so it wouldnt be clever to now dismiss them totally.

    The thing is, tho its very different today, I still do not belong. I've excelled in hobbies involving things and communities of people of machine builders and hobby spacepilots, but in realitry I am still only wearing my mask and doing my job. The mask I own totally sucks, it leaks at a billion points and since I am the worst liar who ever existed on the world, people see just right through me. So I cant hide from constantly doing nerdy things in public and stepping in one blamage after the other. The only thing that keeps me save is competence and my knowledge and a positive attitude towards life that seems to look to others, he's happy his own way.

    Nevertheless I'ld wish for much much more closeness with people. I wish I would have a best friend that is a thing I never had. People were always more of just friends but really close friends I never had. Most probably because I never let them that close aswell, cause I thought they will not understand how I see the world either way. And that's why I still until today cant safely and with a free conciencse tell you if I am now I or E. Socially introverted 100% for sure, Assertive and stubborn dependant on external stimuli for sure too. I lived for 2 years in my parents houses basement and only had the computer to entertain me at age 16 so thats no real E aswell.


    Well that's my load. Maybe it gives other people new ideas on their quests.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #34
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    You mean ambiverted?
    Yes.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    You mean ambiverted?
    Yes.
    TAWANDA!! :steam:

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I dont like the intp resoluteness with things. Rather than keeping an open-mind, things which are marked "scientific theory" are used for a resolute expression to describe things. Even if intps aint resolute in their thinking, the form you talk about it sucks and drives people away.
    Quite possible.
    For example you talk about E/I being the spectrum of things and I rather ask myself, why abide by that rule at all ? I am me an alone human being and E/I is a mere human definition to things by people I dont even like. So what am I trieing to accomplish here ? To find out more about me myself or to find out how I fit better into norms by a society I havent liked from the start.
    You mistake the clarity with which I try to express myself, for certainty. (A lot of people make that mistake).
    But you seem confused to me. Since this thread asks "Can one be both an introvert and an extrovert?" I have to work from the premise that such terms mean something and I have to work with my understanding of what those terms mean. That doesn't mean that I am 100% convinced that they have real life correlates - I'm open to discussion about that, but that's another thread - it just means that the premise is implicit in any answer I give. I have a model of what the concepts of extroversion and introversion are and how it works and I consult that model to see how to answer the question. Always I ask: is it consistent? As such, it's very simple to sound certain, because I am certain, about the model, I am certain that introversion and extroversion are not quantum states. They are either / or states. But if new data changes the model (for example, once we have complete understanding of the neuroscience behind the phenomenon, rather than the current partial understanding) then that will change the answer to questions contingent on that model.
    See?

    I'm sorry if that disturbs you. You are free to make an alternate case.
    You say depressed extroverts thing they are introverts some times. I rather think that people who would freely call themselves introvert or extroverts have a problem. Cause the longer you call yourself something the more you gonna believe in it for yourself. Isnt it just enough to be depressed at the moment, do we really need to justify that for us: it is because we are introvert, meaning god wanted us to be different and thats why I am depressed.
    Yeah. No. That's not what I said, and not what I meant. At all.
    Individuals are calibrated differently. What is normal for one, is not normal for another. Maybe your body temperature is a couple of degrees higher than mine, for (extreme) example. So that if I were to have the same temperature I'd be running a fever, whereas it's just normal for you. That's similar to how I think about extroversion and introversion. If a person who is normally very extroverted becomes withdrawn and quiet and anti-social, I'd be worried that something was up. But for someone like me, that would be completely normal and nothing to worry about.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I have this long talks with my infj in which I try to really understand at least something. She's totally anti any labeling system. So the first time I for example started to present her the mbti system she laied out all the psychologial diseases from which people could suffer who label themselves in some unusual way.
    I do not understand this kind of phobic thinking. Labels and models are benign. They are a way of explaining natural phenomena, naturally recurring patterns. A way of increasing knowledge. They are kept as long as they are useful and tossed as soon as they are invalidated or refined. No big deal.
    The real problem is and maybe thats a thing many entps face: you never belong.
    I do think ENTPs have some unique challenges. They seem to have a high need for external stimulation but are also often anti-social or socially challenged in some way. Maybe that deserves its own thread?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #37
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    You mean ambiverted?
    Yes.
    No, ambiversion is a myth. It's made up by people who:

    A) Can't figure out if they're more fundamentally introverted or extroverted, and
    B) Like the idea of being "miscellaneous" because it makes them feel special/unique/defiant of categorization.


    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    About introversion vs extroversion its basically about where you get your energy from, is it from interaction and involvement in activities, other people, engaging debates you might be extroverted. If you get energy from alone time where you can reflect on the activities, even solitude activities, reflect on people and ideas and knowledge, it might suggest introversion. I know this is a lacking model of introversion vs extroversion. But it is generally where you get your energy from. Is it the outer world or your own inner world. We all get energy from both but what do you prefer as your main recharger of energy.
    This is actually one of the most common misconceptions among typology communities.

    There are very social introverts who like to be around others a lot and very antisocial extroverts who spend most of their time alone.

    We all need to get over the idea that extroversion/introversion is directly related to being social or not social. That is one commonly occurring consequence of I/E, but it is not the defining characteristic.

    The real meaning of I/E has to do with how one derives one's conception of truth, which forms the basis of one's worldview.

    Introverts draw their most dominant perspective from subjective internal sources, seeking to live up to an internalized ideal that is unrelated to any external standard.

    Extroverts draw their most dominant perspective from objective external sources, seeking to live up to an externalized ideal that is unrelated to any internal standard.


    As we grow and develop our auxiliary functions, we learn to balance and place value on both, but will still always fundamentally identify more closely with one or the other.

    It is true that extroverts are more likely to be social than introverts, but social interaction with others is simply one common consequence and not actually the crux of I/E. Extroversion simply means more inclined to be stimulated by external sources than by internal ones; however, there are many possible sources of external stimulation which do not include other people!

    For example my INFP roommate almost never wants to be completely alone. He is almost always up for hanging out with one or two close friends because part of his subjective, internalized ideal involves placing a high value on spending a lot of time with those that are close to him.

    He doesn't feel "drained by spending time with others" at all, and yet he is quite clearly introverted because his dominant perspective is very rooted in Fi.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I do not understand this kind of phobic thinking. Labels and models are benign. They are a way of explaining natural phenomena, naturally recurring patterns. A way of increasing knowledge. They are kept as long as they are useful and tossed as soon as they are invalidated or refined. No big deal.
    No way dude, labels and models are evil conspiracies designed intentionally to strangle individuality and personal creativity/take over the world/fund terrorism/wtfever. Don't you read Victor's posts????
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, ambiversion is a myth. It's made up by people who:

    A) Can't figure out if they're more fundamentally introverted or extroverted, and
    B) Like the idea of being "miscellaneous" because it makes them feel special/unique/defiant of categorization.




    This is actually one of the most common misconceptions among typology communities.

    There are very social introverts who like to be around others a lot and very antisocial extroverts who spend most of their time alone.

    We all need to get over the idea that extroversion/introversion is directly related to being social or not social. That is one commonly occurring consequence of I/E, but it is not the defining characteristic.

    The real meaning of I/E has to do with how one derives one's conception of truth, which forms the basis of one's worldview.

    Introverts draw their most dominant perspective from subjective internal sources, seeking to live up to an internalized ideal that is unrelated to any external standard.

    Extroverts draw their most dominant perspective from objective external sources, seeking to live up to an externalized ideal that is unrelated to any internal standard.


    As we grow and develop our auxiliary functions, we learn to balance and place value on both, but will still always fundamentally identify more closely with one or the other.

    It is true that extroverts are more likely to be social than introverts, but social interaction with others is simply one common consequence and not actually the crux of I/E. Extroversion simply means more inclined to be stimulated by external sources than by internal ones; however, there are many possible sources of external stimulation which do not include other people!

    For example my INFP roommate almost never wants to be completely alone. He is almost always up for hanging out with one or two close friends because part of his subjective, internalized ideal involves placing a high value on spending a lot of time with those that are close to him.

    He doesn't feel "drained by spending time with others" at all, and yet he is quite clearly introverted because his dominant perspective is very rooted in Fi.
    Agreed

  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Hey, can we see some examples?
    I think it helps to actually tie this to actual manifestations rather than continuously abstracting it -- it's easy for it to become divorced from practical understanding.

    Sim, for example: what "externalized ideal that is unrelated to any internal standard" is driving you?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Quite possible.
    You mistake the clarity with which I try to express myself, for certainty. (A lot of people make that mistake).
    Well if thats fine for you

    But you seem confused to me. Since this thread asks "Can one be both an introvert and an extrovert?" I have to work from the premise that such terms mean something and I have to work with my understanding of what those terms mean.
    I have to do nothing but to die in life. To me human psychology isnt math, therefore I wont talk about peoples issues like in a research paper.

    That doesn't mean that I am 100% convinced that they have real life correlates - I'm open to discussion about that, but that's another thread - it just means that the premise is implicit in any answer I give.
    I compute.

    I have a model of what the concepts of extroversion and introversion are and how it works and I consult that model to see how to answer the question. Always I ask: is it consistent? As such, it's very simple to sound certain, because I am certain, about the model, I am certain that introversion and extroversion are not quantum states. They are either / or states. But if new data changes the model (for example, once we have complete understanding of the neuroscience behind the phenomenon, rather than the current partial understanding) then that will change the answer to questions contingent on that model.
    See?
    Yes.



    I'm sorry if that disturbs you. You are free to make an alternate case.
    Yeah. No. That's not what I said, and not what I meant. At all.
    Individuals are calibrated differently. What is normal for one, is not normal for another. Maybe your body temperature is a couple of degrees higher than mine, for (extreme) example. So that if I were to have the same temperature I'd be running a fever, whereas it's just normal for you. That's similar to how I think about extroversion and introversion. If a person who is normally very extroverted becomes withdrawn and quiet and anti-social, I'd be worried that something was up. But for someone like me, that would be completely normal and nothing to worry about.
    Yes I revised my former words about it in the thread above. And I am in fact always a bit higher on the body temperature. Doctor says I've a faaaaaaaaaaaast metabolism

    I do not understand this kind of phobic thinking. Labels and models are benign. They are a way of explaining natural phenomena, naturally recurring patterns. A way of increasing knowledge. They are kept as long as they are useful and tossed as soon as they are invalidated or refined. No big deal.
    Yes, you just sometimes have to sell this stuff in different words to people, otherwise they think you are strange and hunt you with forks and fire at night. That's actually no thing that bothers me, I am just a big fan of metaphorical speech and any plain factual approach I find boring. Not your problem tho.

    I do think ENTPs have some unique challenges. They seem to have a high need for external stimulation but are also often anti-social or socially challenged in some way. Maybe that deserves its own thread?
    Yes, yes... it's like that movie with Jack Nicholson, one flew over the cuckoo's nest. You only talk shit 24/7 and pick on all people, but in the end they stand behind you and form a team with you and thats either because they calculated the factual data wrong or because they are human
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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