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Thread: Ask an ENTJ!

  1. #11
    Senior Member JHBowden's Avatar
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    Because, in this particular case, you can't make it mandatory.
    *I'll* give you the honest answer.

    As a person addicted to meetup.com, I decided to create my own philosophy meetup group last year in Chicago. I had no idea how much interest there would be in the area for philosophy, especially serious, rigorous philosophy, given how most groups found themselves oriented around New Agey stuff. How many people could possibly be interested in philosophy? Stuff like Carnap, Quine, Kripke, etc? Obviously we can't force people to be interested in such an abstruse subject.

    To maximize my odds of success, I picked accessible, regionally central locations, with a nice atmosphere and nice food. I defined my target audience broadly, from newbs to students to perhaps even professors, with the priority on getting serious people, but not to the point of forcing myself into an all-or-nothing situation. My main page contained a message that was welcoming, simple, friendly, and accessible.

    By keeping the discussions at a high level, the meetup attracted a lot of high level thinkers-- by several months, I was regularly getting 15-20+ people, which I found astonishing. People kept coming back, since I took them seriously, told them hello and goodbye on a personal level, made friends, and did my best to make sure everyone got a chance to interact without sacrificing the content of the discussion.

    Another thing I do is centralize power, and keep it as out of view as possible. That way there isn't the perception of power at all, just fun, and if issues do come up, people can talk to me directly instead of blaming the event. A benevolent dictatorship always works better than a democracy. I went to a large sci-fi meetup once infested with INTP nerds, and they made it very ritualistic, democratic, cliquey, with voted officials (ESFJ shadows running amok) and it led to this embarrassing power struggle, with shouting and yelling, in front of like 60 people. The only event I attended there, that's just not the way to run things.

    I'm no longer in charge of my old philosophy group, since I've moved on to other personal projects, though group building is an easy thing. Only when we only control what we can control does "if you build it, they will come" becomes an effective working philosophy. No one likes bossy, bullying people.

    Here's another honest answer. My brother, an INFP, is not a constant person. I've learned from experience that a "yes" on if he is going to show requires a x3 multiplier-- if he says he'll be someplace in 5 minutes, that means 15. "No" always means 'no', of course, and "maybe" always means "no, because I don't want to get talked into it if I say 'no'."

    Lastly, spazzing out when we don't get our way solves nothing. While a lot of women do this, it is no way for a man to project authority. If we want a large crowd to attend our event, and only a few people show up, then getting angry will just alienate the kind people who did make the effort to show up. Why not make the event pleasant for those who arrive? Then they'll definitely come back next time, and may even bring others as well. It also helps to ask others for input and feedback, since if one person has an issue, others likely as well but are just afraid to speak up. So in your workplace example-- maybe people need to be lured out with free food. Perhaps the presentations need to be more exciting. The point is to find out.

    A lot of bossy types in my experience tend to be INTJs and ISTJs, who try to hammer the world into preconceived, static molds, instead of going on an adventure and getting organizations to grow organically and dynamically. My ISTJ father always has had problems with customer service departments, because he doesn't have the imagination to see the perspective of the other party, and therefore can't visualize the quickest path to winning through to a solution. Paranoid, he thinks people are deliberately screwing with him, even though it is normal for a lot of companies to have CS issues on 3-4% of their orders, a statistical fact managers take well into account. Getting angry, threatening people, is a way to alienating others and preventing cooperation, rather than securing it. If I have a CS issue, I call up, build rapport with the employee by asking how he is doing while addressing his first name, and then succinctly and directly spell out what I would like done. That way my time on the phone is minimized to about five minutes, instead of a confusing power struggle that lasts for forty-five.

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHBowden View Post
    *I'll* give you the honest answer.

    As a person addicted to meetup.com, I decided to create my own philosophy meetup group last year in Chicago. I had no idea how much interest there would be in the area for philosophy, especially serious, rigorous philosophy, given how most groups found themselves oriented around New Agey stuff. How many people could possibly be interested in philosophy? Stuff like Carnap, Quine, Kripke, etc? Obviously we can't force people to be interested in such an abstruse subject.

    To maximize my odds of success, I picked accessible, regionally central locations, with a nice atmosphere and nice food. I defined my target audience broadly, from newbs to students to perhaps even professors, with the priority on getting serious people, but not to the point of forcing myself into an all-or-nothing situation. My main page contained a message that was welcoming, simple, friendly, and accessible.

    By keeping the discussions at a high level, the meetup attracted a lot of high level thinkers-- by several months, I was regularly getting 15-20+ people, which I found astonishing. People kept coming back, since I took them seriously, told them hello and goodbye on a personal level, made friends, and did my best to make sure everyone got a chance to interact without sacrificing the content of the discussion.

    Another thing I do is centralize power, and keep it as out of view as possible. That way there isn't the perception of power at all, just fun, and if issues do come up, people can talk to me directly instead of blaming the event. A benevolent dictatorship always works better than a democracy. I went to a large sci-fi meetup once infested with INTP nerds, and they made it very ritualistic, democratic, cliquey, with voted officials (ESFJ shadows running amok) and it led to this embarrassing power struggle, with shouting and yelling, in front of like 60 people. The only event I attended there, that's just not the way to run things.

    I'm no longer in charge of my old philosophy group, since I've moved on to other personal projects, though group building is an easy thing. Only when we only control what we can control does "if you build it, they will come" becomes an effective working philosophy. No one likes bossy, bullying people.

    Here's another honest answer. My brother, an INFP, is not a constant person. I've learned from experience that a "yes" on if he is going to show requires a x3 multiplier-- if he says he'll be someplace in 5 minutes, that means 15. "No" always means 'no', of course, and "maybe" always means "no, because I don't want to get talked into it if I say 'no'."

    Lastly, spazzing out when we don't get our way solves nothing. While a lot of women do this, it is no way for a man to project authority. If we want a large crowd to attend our event, and only a few people show up, then getting angry will just alienate the kind people who did make the effort to show up. Why not make the event pleasant for those who arrive? Then they'll definitely come back next time, and may even bring others as well. It also helps to ask others for input and feedback, since if one person has an issue, others likely as well but are just afraid to speak up. So in your workplace example-- maybe people need to be lured out with free food. Perhaps the presentations need to be more exciting. The point is to find out.

    A lot of bossy types in my experience tend to be INTJs and ISTJs, who try to hammer the world into preconceived, static molds, instead of going on an adventure and getting organizations to grow organically and dynamically. My ISTJ father always has had problems with customer service departments, because he doesn't have the imagination to see the perspective of the other party, and therefore can't visualize the quickest path to winning through to a solution. Paranoid, he thinks people are deliberately screwing with him, even though it is normal for a lot of companies to have CS issues on 3-4% of their orders, a statistical fact managers take well into account. Getting angry, threatening people, is a way to alienating others and preventing cooperation, rather than securing it. If I have a CS issue, I call up, build rapport with the employee by asking how he is doing while addressing his first name, and then succinctly and directly spell out what I would like done. That way my time on the phone is minimized to about five minutes, instead of a confusing power struggle that lasts for forty-five.
    Agree with you in regards to the importance of letting any group or organization grow "organically" as opposed to becoming robotic and immobile. I think that is overlooked very often with growing businesses and it is easier said than done. How exactly does one develop an organic organization without allowing it to become robotic? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

    I sometimes think that people (and managers) think so "robotically" most of the time (society will "program" you that way if you let it), that it's actually harder to develop an organic organization than it is to develop a robotic one. If you aren't staying on top of it and putting forth the extra effort to make sure that it remains organic in nature, then it can quickly become a robotic organization because, well, that's just what people are used to and that's the mode that they will "fall into" out of pure habit. To even know the real difference between those two things is something to wrap one's brain around to begin with. Robotic institutions cannot move quickly, they cannot react to change. Relative to their "organic" competition, they are dead in the water.

    And yeah, I agree with you on the customer service thing too. Most NT's are going to take the "efficient route" (unless they just feel like arguing for the sake of arguing) and do some forward thinking and conduct the customer service phone conversation in a way that allows them to get off the phone quickly. I also will call up and if my issue is above the CS reps authority, I will ask to speak to a manager. When the manager picks up, I start out with something like, "I just want to let you know that overall I am very satisfied with my experience with you guys. Very seldom have I ever had an issue when ordering through you guys. But, this one time, I have a big issue and it just didn't seem like *Ralph* was understanding what my problem was, so I wanted to speak to you and see if we could work this out." It's all about diplomacy and being tactful. Shouting and/or talking down to people usually won't get the job done. At least not in the best way possible.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #13
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    I needed an extra strength Excedrin to get through the first page of reading, and just looking at the second chapter makes me dizzy.

    To make an organization functional, there must be a goal.

    To make people drive themselves towards that goal, there must be a reward for them as well (your own reward doesn't count).

    I deal with my employees via this management style:

    1. Go personal.

    Whats in it for them? If their love their job - and - its going to unbelievably benefit their lives - they will speed to work, rush up the elevator, work to the best of their ability, and stay as late as they can.

    After trying many methods, this one is the ultimate approach. For example, I let my Director of Marketing, Director of Operations, and Director of Customer Relations set their own salary.

    They go on a commission basis of profit at 1-2%, THAT'S IT. If they want to work, and work hard - they REWARD THEMSELVES.

    They think of long vacations in the Bahamas, they think of luxury, they think of their jobs as the alleyway to success. Despite the economy - the incentive in my salary protocol makes them FIX THE PROBLEM, find solutions, build a door when opportunity doesn't knock, and move forward in the wake of failure.

    The rest of the organization follows their lead; the incentive is passed across departments. The organization succeeds.

    As far as after-hours meetings - CREATE AN INCENTIVE, and the rest will fall into place.

    In any corporate organization - the amount of financial success you can achieve is nearly unlimited. You hire people that are ambitious, and they will leverage the incentive to fulfill their ambitions.

    The people I work with love dealing with me because I am extremely open minded, I consider and realize everything and anything they have to say, I value and weigh every single strategy and tactic, and implement it immediately or rescind it with reasonable cause.

    Incentive is only one "gear" of dealing with employees or organizations, but I have to say it is the foremost "driving gear."

  4. #14
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    I needed an extra strength Excedrin to get through the first page of reading, and just looking at the second chapter makes me dizzy.

    To make an organization functional, there must be a goal.

    To make people drive themselves towards that goal, there must be a reward for them as well (your own reward doesn't count).

    I deal with my employees via this management style:

    1. Go personal.

    Whats in it for them? If their love their job - and - its going to unbelievably benefit their lives - they will speed to work, rush up the elevator, work to the best of their ability, and stay as late as they can.

    After trying many methods, this one is the ultimate approach. For example, I let my Director of Marketing, Director of Operations, and Director of Customer Relations set their own salary.

    They go on a commission basis of profit at 1-2%, THAT'S IT. If they want to work, and work hard - they REWARD THEMSELVES.

    They think of long vacations in the Bahamas, they think of luxury, they think of their jobs as the alleyway to success. Despite the economy - the incentive in my salary protocol makes them FIX THE PROBLEM, find solutions, build a door when opportunity doesn't knock, and move forward in the wake of failure.

    The rest of the organization follows their lead; the incentive is passed across departments. The organization succeeds.

    As far as after-hours meetings - CREATE AN INCENTIVE, and the rest will fall into place.

    In any corporate organization - the amount of financial success you can achieve is nearly unlimited. You hire people that are ambitious, and they will leverage the incentive to fulfill their ambitions.

    The people I work with love dealing with me because I am extremely open minded, I consider and realize everything and anything they have to say, I value and weigh every single strategy and tactic, and implement it immediately or rescind it with reasonable cause.

    Incentive is only one "gear" of dealing with employees or organizations, but I have to say it is the foremost "driving gear."
    Good stuff. Do you ever find that giving your employees "free reign" like this sometimes causes ethical issues in the organization? In other words, does the amount of freedom that you give them (bring in money at all costs because it will benefit them greatly) have a positive correlation with making some unethical decisions at times?

    I agree for the most part with your style of management (and I like your ideas, more or less), but the reason I ask these things is because in recent years we've seen companies who are "all about the cheddar" - just bring in as many millions and billions as you can at warp speed and we will all reap the benefits - next thing you know, they get caught up some scandal that in some way involves greed and going "too far" with the freedom they've been given. Have you experienced problems like that at all? Where you give them freedom and they go too far with it?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  5. #15
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    As I'm not really in the work place, I have yet to be put in this position exactly.
    However, I would agree with what both of you are saying.

    It's more difficult to do with fellow students and siblings, in my opinion though. That's all I've worked with though and I think it was just irritated me to a point where I go into large groups expecting incompetence -- which obviously is not a very healthy trait to have. Baha.

  6. #16
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Good stuff. Do you ever find that giving your employees "free reign" like this sometimes causes ethical issues in the organization? In other words, does the amount of freedom that you give them (bring in money at all costs because it will benefit them greatly) have a positive correlation with making some unethical decisions at times?

    I agree for the most part with your style of management (and I like your ideas, more or less), but the reason I ask these things is because in recent years we've seen companies who are "all about the cheddar" - just bring in as many millions and billions as you can at warp speed and we will all reap the benefits - next thing you know, they get caught up some scandal that in some way involves greed and going "too far" with the freedom they've been given. Have you experienced problems like that at all? Where you give them freedom and they go too far with it?
    Good point!

    And yes, an organization is it's people. That's it.

    Giving ambitious people the freedom to make what they want, can sometimes come at the expense of making unethical decisions.

    But - there's a fine line between illegal and unethical. I place more emphasis on illegal practices.

    On the basis of ethics, it does bear importance because the detriment of making unethical decisions sometimes is not seen right away - but years down the line with loss in customer trust and those corporate scandals.

    Just look at BP - The biggest oil company in the world (FIVE times larger than Exxon), now embracing its forlorn total collapse. BP's CEO resigned, and they company may not be able to survive the ravages of their mess.

    Why? The most powerful company in oil, with operations around the globe. They had the best workers, engineers, contracts - moving BILLIONS of dollars - and now its ALL GONE. What caused the mess?

    Ethics.

    The blowout preventer was a less expensive alternative, did the same job, but the manufacturer had explicitly stated it was more dangerous.

    The company was sound and the most profitable, but a lack of ethics - destroyed the company.


    THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE I EVER RECEIVED IN BUSINESS (ALSO APPLIES TO LIFE):

    In the engine of business there are many gears - customer relations, efficiencies, financing, capital, products, services, logistics, management, employees (10 other sub-gears), manufacturing, ethics, technology ETC ...

    All of these gears must be working together in perfect harmony, to drive the vehicle of profitability.

    If only one gear is flawed, the engine is sabotaged (or soon to be).



    You brought up a great point - and BP is the perfect example. Their gears were running smooth, but the broken gear of ethics now destroyed all else beyond repair.
    A good leader is one that can realize that all things are dynamic, there are no ten commandments.

    So yes, I believe ethics are important - no more important than anything else in the company.

  7. #17
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Just two

    1) (Primarily for the ladies, but the guys can answer too): Do you find Feeler guys interesting or a pain in the ass? Please do be brutally honest, it's your honesty that I admire so much

    2) Why are you guys and ladies so awesome?
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  8. #18
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneyTick View Post
    Good point!

    And yes, an organization is it's people. That's it.

    Giving ambitious people the freedom to make what they want, can sometimes come at the expense of making unethical decisions.

    But - there's a fine line between illegal and unethical. I place more emphasis on illegal practices.

    On the basis of ethics, it does bear importance because the detriment of making unethical decisions sometimes is not seen right away - but years down the line with loss in customer trust and those corporate scandals.

    Just look at BP - The biggest oil company in the world (FIVE times larger than Exxon), now embracing its forlorn total collapse. BP's CEO resigned, and they company may not be able to survive the ravages of their mess.

    Why? The most powerful company in oil, with operations around the globe. They had the best workers, engineers, contracts - moving BILLIONS of dollars - and now its ALL GONE. What caused the mess?

    Ethics.

    The blowout preventer was a less expensive alternative, did the same job, but the manufacturer had explicitly stated it was more dangerous.

    The company was sound and the most profitable, but a lack of ethics - destroyed the company.


    THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE I EVER RECEIVED IN BUSINESS (ALSO APPLIES TO LIFE):

    In the engine of business there are many gears - customer relations, efficiencies, financing, capital, products, services, logistics, management, employees (10 other sub-gears), manufacturing, ethics, technology ETC ...

    All of these gears must be working together in perfect harmony, to drive the vehicle of profitability.

    If only one gear is flawed, the engine is sabotaged (or soon to be).



    You brought up a great point - and BP is the perfect example. Their gears were running smooth, but the broken gear of ethics now destroyed all else beyond repair.
    A good leader is one that can realize that all things are dynamic, there are no ten commandments.

    So yes, I believe ethics are important - no more important than anything else in the company.
    Funny you use BP as an example. I almost used them as an example in my previous post, but I thought, "Nah, I'll leave that whole situation alone tonight." But, yeah, it provides a great example.

    Speaking of giving employees "free reign", I had a Management professor who preached the idea that you have to empower your employees. You have to "turn them loose" so to speak. Many students said, "You can't do that. They'd be running amuck. It would be chaos if there weren't rules and policies to reign them in."

    He would just smile and say, "Really? You really think nobody would show up and nobody would do their job and nothing would get done and it would be total anarchy?" We all said, "Yeah, pretty much."

    One time he said, "Let's try it. From now on in this class, you guys can show up and leave whenever you want, you can sit anywhere you want, you can face your desk towards the back wall if you want (so that you aren't looking at me), you can have headphones on if you want, you can lay down on the floor and take notes if you want. Basically, anything goes. Just keep in mind that your final grade is still dependent on your learning and your progress in this class."

    He proved us wrong. The class actually became fun, everyone enjoyed coming to class and being able to "let loose" and think outside the box. It actually motivated people to do better I think because they enjoyed being there. Instead of feeling like you were being "forced to learn" by his rules and his structure, you felt empowered to do it your way knowing that the final results were truly in your hands.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #19
    Senior Member MoneyTick's Avatar
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    But otherwise, you have to look at an organization as a large group of people.

    Are they staying still?

    Are they roaming around seamlessly?

    Are they running in a marathon at full speed in pursuit of a goal?

    The people have to consent with your goal. There must be incentive, as I previously mentioned.

    Then you meetings wouldn't be another boring get-together - but a meaningful milestone in accomplishing something great.

    In relationships, organizations and MOST IMPORTANTLY >>>> politics and the retail business, this is the bottom line:

    "Give the people what they want, and they will love you for it"

    Great products, low prices - typical retail jargon and lingo etc....

    If you can apply that to an organization, and plus the other gears of the trade - success will fall into place.

    EDIT:

    And yes -- I LOVED COLLEGE!!!

    Nobody "put a gun to my head" and said "YOU HAVE TO BE HERE AT 7:40 AM OR SEVERE PUNISHMENT WILL BE IMPLEMENTED AGAINST YOU"

    Due to that, I was always 10 minutes early to class.

    In high school, I was late 45 times my senior year and absent 23 school days. My parents had to file a lawsuit against the school or else the principal would not let me graduate.

    The freedom in college, gave me the freedom to pursure the "bottom line" and my "degree" in the way I personally knew how, doing it MY way not the SCHOOL's way.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Just two

    1) (Primarily for the ladies, but the guys can answer too): Do you find Feeler guys interesting or a pain in the ass? Please do be brutally honest, it's your honesty that I admire so much

    2) Why are you guys and ladies so awesome?


    I've never dated a feeler -- I find them to be better friends. All of my good friends who I stay in contact with are feelers -- only two who I can think of aren't. I don't need someone to tell me what I already know and it helps to know and be able to talk to someone who understands something that I don't.

    I'm not sure if I would date one -- I find them interesting, yes....but I could not deal with someone who was offended by me often which tends to happen when arguing or when I'm being honest. My friend, an INFJ, is just ridiculous when it comes to asking me to be honest, but then when I am she cries. Bah, I completely shut down when that happens and really don't feel the need to continue talking to her for a bit.

    Sounds rude, yes, but I just don't do well with people and their feelings. Ehhhh.

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