[NT] Who's more close-minded: NTJs or NTPS?

[SillySapienne]

I'm obviously biased being a hardcore NP myself, but I honestly don't know how to answer this question.

*thinks*

I've been more acquainted with NTPs than NTJs in my life.

I know I tend to feel more comfortable with Ps, in general.

Ne is such an open, expansive function, it seeks out new stimuli to store in its proverbial Ti/Si or Fi/Si bank, so I would surmise that ENTPs are the most open-minded of the the NTs.

Now, with NTJs, they've got Ni + Te, or Te+ Ni, plus the Fi, I think that INTJs tend to think they are always right, that they know better than all, or most, although the mature ones will quietly acquire new information that they previously did not know.

Ti, my my, Ti, what a linear labyrinth of a function, Ti + Ne, I dunno, Ti doms have a focus, or focuses, and they like to well, focus on what they care about, but I've found when you discuss new "outside" (to them) information with them, that they will gladly, if they find it interesting, soak it in, but, I dunno, what you tell them either needs to be simply factual, or in the case of when it's a theory in order for them to "accept" it, it needs to make sense to them, if something seems/sounds fishy to them, they will stop you in your tracks and lacerate whatever you're trying to tell them and illuminate all the holes that are missing to the theory.

One thing I know about Ti as a function is this...

Goddamn, is it THOROUGH, painstakingly so.

I have benefited a lot by being "trained" by Ti friends/teachers, I'm comfortable with gaps, they aren't, I'm comfortable with loose strings, I don't think they are, I could be wrong, though.

Now, regarding NTJs, I think that they can be INCREDIBLY open-minded when they've reached a level of intellectual and personal maturity where they understand that they do not know all, that others have insights and info to offer, that this doesn't threaten their intellect but rather facilitates it and fosters it to GROW.



I know a lovely ENTJ.

We talk about a lot of things, granted, objectively, like IQ-wise, I am significantly smarter than he is, not by a landslide but still, and he seems to have NO PROBLEM AT ALL with my intellect, my offerings of opinions, insights, ideas, he actually loves to hear them.

One of the better male listeners I've ever known.

But, he's special in that, despite the fact he is an ETJ, he is constantly yearning to learn new things, gain more experience, understand life better. He's lovely.

However, oy vey, he DOES NOT LIKE, rather, HE HATES when I give him advice regarding his non-existent love life.



At this point, I've just accepted it's a sore subject for him so I don't even bring it up anymore.

Actually, now that I think about it, NTJs don't respond well to advice, at least in my experience.

Is it an "I don't need you help thing?"

I dunno, it could also be a guy thing, but Js especially, just don't seem to like being in the position for having to be "mentored" or simply want or think they can figure out their problems themselves, I dunno.

NPs, or Ps, in general, however, respond pretty damn well to advice, eh, ITPs can be some stubborn ass mofos though, but all in all, I have found that NPs, NTPs included, seem to respond better to advice, I don't know if that correlates with open-mindedness, but it's certainly an observation I've noticed/experienced.

 

[Zarathustra]

But, he's special in that, despite the fact he is a ETJ, he is constantly yearning to learn new things, gain more experience, understand life better.

That's an awfully presumptuous and downtrodden view of ETJs...

However, oy vey, he DOES NOT LIKE, rather, HE HATES when I give him advice regarding his non-existent love life.



At this point, I've just accepted it's a sore subject for him so I don't even bring it up anymore.

Actually, now that I think about it, NTJs don't respond well to advice, at least in my experience.

Is it an "I don't need you help thing?"

I dunno, it could also be a guy thing, but Js especially, just don't seem to like being in the position for having to be "mentored" or simply want or think they can figure out their problems themselves, I dunno.

NPs, or Ps, in general, however, respond pretty damn well to advice, eh, ITPs can be some stubborn ass mofos though, but all in all, I have found that NPs, NTPs included, seem to respond better to advice, I don't know if that correlates with open-mindedness, but it's certainly an observation I've noticed/experienced.

Perhaps, as an NP yourself, your advice is more applicable to NPs...

NP advice for an NJ might just not be that useful...

 

[SillySapienne]

That's an awfully presumptuous and downtrodden view of ETJs...

I guess I was thinking of ESTJs, in general, but you are right, it was presumptuous and insulting for me to state that, my bad.

Sorry ETJs.



(My sis is an ESTJ and she's well, we don't get along )

Perhaps, as an NP yourself, your advice is more applicable to NPs...

That would make sense.

NP advice for an NJ might just not be that useful...

Elaborate, preeze.

 

[SillySapienne]

Maybe that's it, you mentioned advice not being *useful*

That's very Te, no?

I think that getting different perspectives from intelligent folks is "useful" as it lends for personal growth.

Hmm, I wonder if Ps are more prone to willingly go to therapy than Js.

 

[SillySapienne]

FJs would be different, I think of all the types, Fs would be the most likely to seek and approve and like therapy.

 

[Zarathustra]

Maybe that's it, you mentioned advice not being *useful*

That's very Te, no?

Not my point.

I think that getting different perspectives from intelligent folks is "useful" as it lends for personal growth.

True but...

Elaborate, preeze.

Seeing as how you don't necessarily understand things from the J's perspective, your advice really just might not be helpful, useful, or applicable to their situation, as, you don't really know how it is they function, what it is they go through, and, thus, what it is they need.

In other words, your advice might be much more helpful, useful, and applicable for a P, as you are more similar to them.

But for a J, well, it just might not be.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it is one possible explanation.

 

[INTP]

NPs, or Ps, in general, however, respond pretty damn well to advice, eh, ITPs can be some stubborn ass mofos though, but all in all, I have found that NPs, NTPs included, seem to respond better to advice, I don't know if that correlates with open-mindedness, but it's certainly an observation I've noticed/experienced.

my infp friend hates when i(or someone else) try to give him advice on how to get his life together, even tho he knows that im right and he has no idea.. only thing that seems to work(atleast for a while) is when our entp friend makes him cry by saying that he will have and heart attack in two years and making bets about that with our intj friend in a rather rude way in front of the poor guy.

 

[MacGuffin]

Not sure if you read these two posts earlier...

So then how about the fact that INTPs under the MBTI definition of "judging" are in fact Socionic's INTjs?

If you take both methodologies into account, the labeling would look something like this:

ENTJj
INTJp
INTPj
ENTPp

I think, based on this "combined" labeling system, that incorporates both Socionic's and MBTI's methodology for labeling "judging" and "perceiving", the more J/j one has, the more one would generally be considered "close-minded" by his or her peers.

That sounds about right, though I dislike thinking about commie MBTI. /INTP

 

[INTP]

So then how about the fact that INTPs under the MBTI definition of "judging" are in fact Socionic's INTjs?

socionics labels J/P based on the first function, not how person deals with the external world like mbti. so socionics intj wouldnt be as judging towards others and their ideas like mbti intj would, thats why the socionics labeling on t/j is totally retarded imo

 

[1487610420]

Why is this thrad still open?

 

[Zarathustra]

Why is this thrad still open?

Why are you posting in it?

 

[Zarathustra]

The most closed-minded people are the INTPs. I am ashamed to admit it. Read INTPc.

FTR

 

[Thalassa]

INTJs. They judge you wrongly. And needlessly. And to top it all off THEY THINK THEY ARE RIGHT!

 

[JocktheMotie]

FTR

I'd say he's right about INTPc; highly exclusive "pat yourselves on the back" community that's essentially bent on self reinforcement and validation that treats a dissenting personality like a plague. The problem is, I'd say a fairly good chunk of the members over there probably aren't INTPs, but it's really become a place that "idolizes" the INTP temperament and all the membership emulates it as best they can. Every single type community on the internet takes on this quality, which I think is funny/sad/interesting/whatever you want to call it.

In general terms though, I think Lethe's initial posts on the matter are accurate: NTP and NTJ close-mindedness is going to manifest differently from a cognitive standpoint, however one is not more predisposed to their own close-mindedness than the other. NTJs tend to have unshakeable internal perceptions of truth and meaning and will sometimes dismiss information that doesn't corroborate, while the NTPs flex and adapt to new information rather quickly and readily but the moment you challenge one of the Pillars in which their model is based they may cling and dismiss because they trust it as much as NTJs "trust" Ni.

In the end, I don't think it will be the fault of functions, but more the fault of the individual. The "perception" may be that NTJs are more closeminded simply because the limiting of options and perspectives tends to be manifested externally with Te, and is thus far more visible and nobody else really sees the Ni juggling going on underneath, whereas this is the opposite for NTPs.

 

[guesswho]

Why would NTPs be close minded?

 

[Zarathustra]

I'd say he's right about INTPc; highly exclusive "pat yourselves on the back" community that's essentially bent on self reinforcement and validation that treats a dissenting personality like a plague. The problem is, I'd say a fairly good chunk of the members over there probably aren't INTPs, but it's really become a place that "idolizes" the INTP temperament and all the membership emulates it as best they can. Every single type community on the internet takes on this quality, which I think is funny/sad/interesting/whatever you want to call it.

In general terms though, I think Lethe's initial posts on the matter are accurate: NTP and NTJ close-mindedness is going to manifest differently from a cognitive standpoint, however one is not more predisposed to their own close-mindedness than the other. NTJs tend to have unshakeable internal perceptions of truth and meaning and will sometimes dismiss information that doesn't corroborate, while the NTPs flex and adapt to new information rather quickly and readily but the moment you challenge one of the Pillars in which their model is based they may cling and dismiss because they trust it as much as NTJs "trust" Ni.

In the end, I don't think it will be the fault of functions, but more the fault of the individual. The "perception" may be that NTJs are more closeminded simply because the limiting of options and perspectives tends to be manifested externally with Te, and is thus far more visible and nobody else really sees the Ni juggling going on underneath, whereas this is the opposite for NTPs.

I agree with everything you said here.

Why would NTPs be close minded?

Jock pointed it out pretty clearly, I thought...

The way I see it is that if a core piece of your "model" is questioned, you guys will often completely close your minds to it.

It's similar to how, if a core part of an NTJs vision is questioned, we will often completely close our minds to it.

In each case, the individual involved can respond differently. There's not only one behavioral option. But this is the response these types tend to default to.

NTJs tend to be viewed as more close-minded since their top judgment function is externally focused, while NTPs top externally focused function is a perceiving one.

 

[sleepy]

I'd say he's right about INTPc; highly exclusive "pat yourselves on the back" community that's essentially bent on self reinforcement and validation that treats a dissenting personality like a plague. The problem is, I'd say a fairly good chunk of the members over there probably aren't INTPs, but it's really become a place that "idolizes" the INTP temperament and all the membership emulates it as best they can. Every single type community on the internet takes on this quality, which I think is funny/sad/interesting/whatever you want to call it.

Most mammals seems to exhibit this trait, and humans are especially vulnerable if you put a fence around them. I doubt the behavior you see at intpc has much to do with type.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

When you have a child. To be sure to make them close minded is to isolate and imprint subjective realities. These early mental barriers are resistant to eradication.

I don't think there is a difference between the types. I suspect it's environmentally decided. So either type can be more or less open minded.



.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

NTP et NTJ

Hi everyone !

I wanted to come back on this subject of "close-minded" NTP and NTJ.

My partner is NTJ, ENTJ.

I think he can seem very "close-minded" to the persons who don't know him or/and are not enough T.

He is very much straight talking. He has some ideas (mainly One he thinks fair and right) about any subject.

He defends them strongly. I laugh to the words he uses because they really make sense and they represent strong abstract images.



As an ENTP I am very much curious too, like NTJ are. But I can keep things I find stupid for myself

He on the contrary feels bad if he cannot express his opinions. Mainly if he likes you !

I seem to be more sensitive about others judgement (even if I say I do not care) so I like to see if the person is going to react or not to what I'm saying.
A good ear is enought to me.
Instead of my dear ENTJ who prefers fighting.

I think I'm an observer of what can be funny, enjoyable, amazing, and non-conformist.
He is alsao very excitable, but seems more selective, more into war, and more into "being right".

I understood I have to develop the P not to be affected my the J.
And the relationship is more balanced this way.

If the J has good humour + a good developped J I find the J interesting enough.
If the J I know (not only the ENTJ but also other types) does not have enough F or P, it is a bit boring to me, even if he/she is right.

So, "close-minded" or not, I'm not conservative at all, As communicating, creating new ideas, and concepts is an honour !




But generally speaking, I'd say P or J is maybe not so important, maturity, generosity, curiosity, and love for oneself & others seem to be much more than those 2 letters.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I suspect that most NTJs are mistaken STJs, so it makes the question harder to answer.

It's a tougher question than it appears on the surface because Ti is about reasoning that is part of personal identity moreso than Te. To the extent that ego is invested in Ti, it is closed minded. To the extent that it sees itself as superior to Te, it is to that same extent closed minded. Rigidity and self-investment/ego go hand-in-hand.

 

[chubber]

Hi everyone !

I wanted to come back on this subject of "close-minded" NTP and NTJ.

My partner is NTJ, ENTJ.

I think he can seem very "close-minded" to the persons who don't know him or/and are not enough T.

He is very much straight talking. He has some ideas (mainly One he thinks fair and right) about any subject.

He defends them strongly. I laugh to the words he uses because they really make sense and they represent strong abstract images.



As an ENTP I am very much curious too, like NTJ are. But I can keep things I find stupid for myself

He on the contrary feels bad if he cannot express his opinions. Mainly if he likes you !

I seem to be more sensitive about others judgement (even if I say I do not care) so I like to see if the person is going to react or not to what I'm saying.
A good ear is enought to me.
Instead of my dear ENTJ who prefers fighting.

I think I'm an observer of what can be funny, enjoyable, amazing, and non-conformist.
He is alsao very excitable, but seems more selective, more into war, and more into "being right".

I understood I have to develop the P not to be affected my the J.
And the relationship is more balanced this way.

If the J has good humour + a good developped J I find the J interesting enough.
If the J I know (not only the ENTJ but also other types) does not have enough F or P, it is a bit boring to me, even if he/she is right.

So, "close-minded" or not, I'm not conservative at all, As communicating, creating new ideas, and concepts is an honour !




But generally speaking, I'd say P or J is maybe not so important, maturity, generosity, curiosity, and love for oneself & others seem to be much more than those 2 letters.

What are you on about when you talk P or J?