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  1. #51
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Sorry if it came across that way, but that wasn't directed at you. You're not trying to justify the behavior, so I don't think it's a bad thing.

    Sure, I've been in those ridiculously boring conversations. And boring they remained while I tried to intellectualize them all the time. They became a lot more interesting when I finally figured out what fidelia was talking about - intellectualizing isn't the point! It's the empathy, and the good feelings that being there for someone engenders, that is the whole point of the affair.

    You could see the guy talking about the lawn in purely analytical terms "well, he really doesn't have it as bad as he thinks", or think about it in emotional terms "wow, it seems like they're getting you in even the pettiest of places these days." For the booger comment, it's more like "hah, that's disgusting, but it sure would show them!" You see why the last two create a better response? You're saying to the other guy "hey, I'm on your side, and I want to see you be well."

    This is at the core of what it means to be human. Unfortunately, xNTPs seem to have a big issue with "being human" for a long time... but we've got to get around that if we want to be healthy human beings with an integrated personality, rather than the disjointed one that leads to self-doubt.
    OK, now this I understand! Good stuff. It probably doesn't make it any easier to actually make the small talk (for the INTP), but at least it provides good reasons to put forth the effort.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  2. #52
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And yet, you acted as if I called him a Nazi or something.
    Well, I said said you insulted him. I consider prickish an insult.

    you're not as special as you think. Plenty of people smarter than you who have lived, plenty who will live after you're gone. However, the only ones you have are the ones you're with right now, and like it or not, you need them. So do them a favor, and treat them like human beings with actual feelings and desires that are equal to your own, and not like defective sources of amusement? K?
    This is not too far off from my point, in a strange way. If you want to start a conversation with someone you don't really know, do so in a way that expresses interest in the other person and allows them to contribute equally to the conversation. The reason I don't start conversations or try not to over-dominate conversations with minor personal stories is exactly because they are not special. I sincerely doubt what you care what I ate for lunch this afternoon, and I totally understand why you don't care. So if someone I don't really know approaches me and talks about how great their lunch was for some amount of time, I get pretty tired of it pretty fast. Approaching someone implies an interest in that person, so express interest in THEM, don't just talk about yourself. If they're considerate, they'll return that expression of interest. In this way, equal desires and feelings, which you mentioned, can be equally regarded and expressed instead of one guy talking about himself and the other sort of just blankly tossing in the occasional "yeah".

    I'm not totally sure where you get the sense that I consider myself insanely more important than the other person, perhaps I worded things poorly before. I just feel that when someone (someone I don't know, friends are obviously different because you have an invested interest in them already) approaches me and immediately launches into some story that I can't really do much but listen to, they aren't really respecting me as person either. If I did it to them, it would be rude and self-involved. If they do it to me, it's equally rude and self-involved. I'm not using a different scale for them than I do for me, though it is a scale constructed based on my own sense a values, values you may disagree with.

    Retrospectively, the OP is probably not the best example of this peeve, though in that conversation I would have personally probably done little but say "oh" and "why?" a few times, and unless he changed the topic I'd eventually think up a reason to go or the conversation would end, since in that instance I'm more a placeholder for this one-sided conversation than an actual human being. It makes me feel like the other person doesn't really care about me, and my incentive to care back comes out stillborn.

    Regardless, sorry to have offended you. It wasn't my intention. I was being slightly defensive at one point.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #53
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    That's a funny response by the Prince, no?
    Oh, it's quite satisfying to see people who are that quick on their feet at succinctly expressing what we all feel. The prince has been known to be rather outspoken on everything from Tom Jones to Scots to his boredom with visiting places like Canada!

    I appreciate the fact that you recognize that your initial response could affect other people in a way that you don't intend, especially when there is no malice there even. I think it's a matter of looking for the reasons behind what people are saying and also thinking of more than one potential reason why it would pay for you to put in the effort required to developing what initially looks like a useless and inane skill. There is sometimes a tendancy with younger NTs to resent being disturbed from what they are ruminating about or working on, they want there to be a clear reason for everything that they are doing, they are fairly direct, and sometimes they write people off too quickly because they value different things. It can seem arrogant and argumentative and detached. Everyone is an expert in something. You can appreciate competency and the quest for knowledge. Try looking in every conversation for what that person is an expert on and then pump them for information. They'll be pleased to talk, there will be some point to the conversation, you'll learn something that may come in handy later and you get past the small talk fairly quickly. Everyone likes to feel like their interests and expertise are valued and they are glad if someone allows them to share what they know.

  4. #54
    Glycerine
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    lol, that was awesome.

    As an ENFJ, I would probably go:

    Guy: blah blah blah blah
    Me: yeah
    Guy: *stupid comment about the lawn*
    Me: That's too bad. Nice talking with you but I have to go "insert errand"

    That's what I do when I don't really want to talk to someone.

    Or if you are stranded:

    Change the subject like:
    Me: That's too bad. Anyways.... *insert some really boring subject* and then he will most likely leave you alone

    Or just reply with one word answers to everything he says.

  5. #55
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I love how everyone thinks they are "healthy" for their type. All those other people out there - (yeah them!) - they're the "unhealthy" ones.

    We all have our hang-ups. To say otherwise is just silly. I'm a fully functional INTP. I get along fine in this world. But, like everyone else (whether they choose to admit it or not), I have things I'm still working on. Sometimes my disinterest in other people's minor problems causes me to come off like a jerk. I can see it on their faces. That is an area that sometimes causes a little bit of social trouble for me. And I have no problem pulling down the "I'm invincible and totally have life all figured out" curtain and talking about my issues. It is what it is. I have flaws that I'd like to improve on. And hopefully, that's one of the functions of this website, to talk to like-minded people (and people who are of different types as well) in order to improve and learn. That doesn't mean I'll suddenly start caring about the $5/month increase in water (as some people said, it's boring and fruitless), but it means I can do better when it comes to at least being a pleasant person to be around. I don't have to care about his $5/month increase, but if you asked the guy his opinion of me, it'd be cool if he said something like, "that INTP is a pretty decent guy" ---------> instead of, "that guy is a prick."

    Because I was a prick in my conversation with the guy doesn't mean I have aspergers or that I'm "unhealthy" or even that I can't take a social cue. It just means I'm real. And that I have certain things I'm still working on.

    I'm not even saying that anyone specifically said that I was unhealthy. It's just crazy how soon the word "unhealthy" starts popping up in these threads when someone didn't perform perfectly in some social situation. Who freaking does perform perfectly in every social situation? If you're xNTP, probably not you!

    Uhhhh, anyone need help paying their water bill this month?
    When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.

    But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #56
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.

    But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?
    I agree w/ tcda. Using just a smidgen of Fe, there are nice and respectful to get the hell out of there.

    I find Coriolis' post about the annoying neighbor quite amusing.

    You could have just told the neighbor: I'm sorry but I really don't have the time to talk right now. I need to get my yard cleaned up.

    If you say something like that, you will come off looking like the good guy and if the neighbor doesn't respect your wishes, he will come off looking the bad guy. As a result, MOST will honor your wishes. If not, then just flat out tell them because they disrespected you.

    I thought what one INTP once told me rang true. As long you're typically agreeable and nice, people will generally respect you.

  7. #57
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    When somebody acts like a stereotype of their type, unable to behave "out of type" i.e. balanced, i.e. when they have not deeveloped their tert and inferior functions, I call that unhealthy. Just my opinion. If intps love being disliked and socially awkward the fine ignore my opinion.
    I'm sure we all act like the "stereotype" of our type a good amount of the time - that's where the stereotypes come from in the first place - because that's how we tend to act. And I'm also pretty sure that a good chunk of people (all?) don't always make the proper adjustment (by behaving "out of type" when it's called for). There will be times when we don't do it. If you're the one guy who doesn't do that, then I want to come watch, observe, and take notes. So, if healthy = always knowing when to act out of type when the situation calls for it, then I still make the mistake and I guess I can't be considered healthy. Even when I'm 65 years old and Si and Fe are (hopefully) fully developed, I'm sure I'll still make the mistake from time to time.

    But perhaps next time just make a thread praising yourself rather than under the pretext of asking for advice on a "problem"...?
    If you check back to the first page of the thread, all I was looking to do was present an issue that I personally have from time to time and I wanted to know what problems other INTP's have might have that cause alienation from others (whether they be small or large issues). Because I figure that other people of my type have similar struggles. That was all I was looking for. Maybe I worded things wrong in my OP, I don't know. I was just wondering what things cause INTP's to struggle with other people. Surely, any good INTP worth his salt, who is now fully matured (Si and Fe work like a gem - every single time) would be able to give good advice because he would have already went through the process that I'm apparently still going through: maturation of the inferior funtion.

    So, to the INTP's who have Fe all figured out and who are fully healthy INTP's, you guys probably have some good, sound advice for the younger, more immature INTP's. Diplomatic, good advice. Not just like, "Ha ha. What an idiot! His Fe still isn't fully developed! What an unhealthy idiot! I'll criticize him again for the things he already admitted he did wrong. I used to be just like him when I was a young lad with inferior Fe, but instead of giving him advice on how I got through it, I'll just tell him he's unhealthy."

    Who knows. I'm over it. Maybe I'll go over to the gentleman's house this afternoon with a couple of cold sodas and shoot the breeze with him on his front porch. And apologize for brushing him off the other day. Fe isn't completely non-existent in me. It's just a work in progress, that's all.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #58
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    There is sometimes a tendancy with younger NTs to resent being disturbed from what they are ruminating about or working on, they want there to be a clear reason for everything that they are doing, they are fairly direct, and sometimes they write people off too quickly because they value different things. It can seem arrogant and argumentative and detached. Everyone is an expert in something. You can appreciate competency and the quest for knowledge. Try looking in every conversation for what that person is an expert on and then pump them for information. They'll be pleased to talk, there will be some point to the conversation, you'll learn something that may come in handy later and you get past the small talk fairly quickly. Everyone likes to feel like their interests and expertise are valued and they are glad if someone allows them to share what they know.
    Very insightful. The highlighted describes me and my reactions quite well. I rarely argue in such situations (I avoid getting that engaged in the conversation), but I'm sure I come off as detached. I also realize I have exploited the underlined strategy, without recognizing it as such. You are quite correct about (almost) everyone having special expertise or even just interests. I sometimes run across this unexpectedly in a conversation, and as you suggest, I take this ball and run with it. I really am willing to talk to almost anyone, provided they are willing to leave small talk behind, and quickly.

  9. #59
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Sometimes my disinterest in other people's minor problems causes me to come off like a jerk. I can see it on their faces. That is an area that sometimes causes a little bit of social trouble for me. And I have no problem pulling down the "I'm invincible and totally have life all figured out" curtain and talking about my issues.
    Know what you are doing here, what is really unhealthy?
    You are devaluing yourself. You are suggesting that your comfort in a social situation is less important than the other person's. Why are you doing that?
    Because 1) you buy into all the crap about "what is unlikeable about INTPs"
    2) you actually have more consideration for others than the average person.
    Unless you are a servile doormat 24*7, some people are going to dislike you (even if you are, some will dislike you for that). You can't please all of the people.

    I see no evidence of your being a jerk in the OP. Either you've phrased it more innocuously than it actually went down, or you are being too hard on yourself.
    If anyone needs to question themselves, it's "guy". I think he was being a selfish jerk. Moaning about the $5 a month it costs to water his lawn when you've just told him that your hours have been cut. He turned the conversation confrontational, he made the atmosphere unpleasant. Reread it, and try being a bit kinder to yourself. Extreme self-criticism is a common fault of INTPs. This is your first problem.
    We seem to think we are ultimately responsible for everything in our environment. That if we can perfect ourselves we can perfect all our interactions. It's a kind of inverted arrogance.

    I don't have to care about his $5/month increase, but if you asked the guy his opinion of me, it'd be cool if he said something like, "that INTP is a pretty decent guy" ---------> instead of, "that guy is a prick."
    This is your second. If his conclusion from that exchange is that you are a prick, then there is something wrong with him, not you. Why do you care what he thinks of you? If you have to be disingenuous in order to attain his good opinion, is it worth it? And can you be sure that he has formed such a negative opinion? Perhaps you are overreacting?

    Because I was a prick in my conversation with the guy
    You weren't. Stop beating yourself up, because, see what happens? All these actual, 24-carat jerks join in to help you. There is a disturbing masochism to all these come-hate-on-INTs threads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Eh, people are reacting far too strongly to the OP's story, IMO. Sure, we all have to play along and listen to people's boring stories. I end up doing that a LOT. I think it's okay to occasionally react truthfully to the fact that lawn guy is being a little ridiculous complaining about something that is ultimately not that big a deal. Sometimes people don't realize how they're coming across, and won't unless people react honestly to them (using humor helps). How come other people get to bore us, and we have to pretend they don't?
    Once again, the voice of wisdom and balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Reason #1. Playing devil's advocate (or challenging everything that another person says):
    It really depends on your motives for challenging - are you trying to present a more reasonable way of thinking about a problem, or are you just looking for an argument?
    I'm challenging your perceptions here, but I do so with good intentions, not because of silly oneupmanship or contrariness. The ability to question everything and produce clear, reasoned arguments rather than nodding along like a toy dog is a gift. Unfortunately, that same critical eye turned inwards to negative rumination can be a curse.
    Real conversation I had recently:
    Guy: Hey, we got some rain lately!
    INTP: Yep!
    Guy: I won't have to water my lawn for a while now.
    INTP: Oh?!
    Guy: Well, I don't water it anyways because the water in this town is so expensive. If it doesn't rain, I just let my lawn die.
    INTP: Water? Expensive?
    Guy: Heck yes it's expensive.
    INTP: How expensive could it really be?
    Guy: Well, let's just say that 2 summers ago I didn't water my lawn very often. Then last summer I decided to water it to keep it green and I compared my bills from the previous summer and my bills were about $5 more per month! Just to water my lawn occasionally!
    INTP: So 5 bucks is expensive?
    Guy: Well, yeah! How would you like to find out that your hours at work are going to be cut and that you'd be making less money from now on?
    INTP: Well, my hours just did get cut last week, but all I'm saying is that it would seem to me that if keeping your lawn green is something that's important to someone, then $5 per month would be well worth it.

    At this point, the guy clearly seemed frustrated. I felt kind of bad as we parted ways, but I'm not sure what other approach I could have taken.
    It's a little bit like the frustration that people felt after a conversation with Socrates. When you challenge someone's flawed assumptions they don't always take it with good grace. Most people just want to have their ears tickled. Do you want to be a populist ear-tickler or do you want to be true to yourself? That is the question.

    Why did you feel bad? What were your motives for saying what you did? Perhaps you were frustrated with the tone of the conversation and wanted to passive-aggressively turn that frustration back on its source? That is something INTPs have a habit of doing. That would be worth feeling bad about. But if you were sincere, then I don't see the problem.
    I just flat out disagree with him and I wasn't mean about it, I just stated my case. 5 bucks isn't worth moaning about. And if it is, then just don't water your lawn. End of story. I almost wanted to say, "Keep watering your lawn. I'll send you 5 bucks every month in the mail." Is the cynicism and truthfulness downright rude? Arghhhh!!!
    If you know you were not mean, then why all the agonizing? The fact that you didn't say what you wanted to say, demonstrates that you are able to check yourself, that you aren't walking around making needlessly offensive, prickish statements (which that certainly would have been).

    Here are some examples of people who aren't able to check themselves:
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Yes, of course that's annoying. Do you have Asperger's or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    ^ Yeah, this. Challenge something if it makes sense to challenge....don't challenge it without understanding the position first, just for the sake of.

    I think the guy might have been frustrated because it seems that you were being contrarian just for the sake of, only to, at the end, point out the same conclusion he told you at the beginning of the conversation. It shows that you weren't truly listening to him, and/or understanding what he was saying. And that you were just trying to be smart with him (for an ego boost?).

    It's like you basically repeating his original sentiment, in a way that makes it seem as if you had this insight while he didn't. Which truly wasn't the case.

    I have had a few conversations with some INTPs where similar things happen. Without truly understanding what I'm trying to say, they question/oppose, only to state the same conclusion that I started off with, in a manner that seems as if they're telling me something new/insightful or different than what I was originally saying - which isn't the case. They just, in a roundabout, time-consuming way, came back to my original point. Frustrating.
    You actually did nothing of the kind. She seems to be describing herself.
    Here's another example:
    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Nah, more like "hey, he's being exactly the kind of needlessly hostile, arrogant ass that we've been talking about the entire thread, what a good demonstration"
    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Their psots in this thread are mostly indistinguishable from unhealthy intp's. which is quite funny because that is the target of their "advice" (which is really just an attempt to have an *argument* for the sake of it, which ironically is one of the very behaviours being criticised lololol haha).
    Yes, well, they don't call it projection for nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #60
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Listen to her ^ and Tallulah. They know what they're saying.

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