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Thread: Is it genetic?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    I know that the brain isn't some ethereal heavenly thing that just occurs.
    It's made out of flesh and blood, sort of a biological computer.
    If you combine your parents inherent traits, you get a result.
    Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
    Forgive my typos. Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain.

  2. #22
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I'm the youngest of 11 children (9 boys, 2 girls) and there are a fair few NT's by no means all of us.

    I have at least two INTJ bros, and my dad, I suspect my mum is an ENTJ (possibly a P), at least one INTP..

    That said there are a fair few SP's and a couple of SJ's

    My mum was an oober N type who was basically big on stimulating us.

    There may be genetics in it - ie male rational thinking terratory, or nurture, because of what stimulus we got as kids. Interesting that the oldest 3 are SP's I think

    The next generation (c.25) and all Artisits and ceative types, music drama, art... I think a good few N types in there too.

  3. #23
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Typology is a pseudoscience, and there is absolutely no way to ascribe a science such as genetics to it.

    You can't just look outwardly look at a trait as complex as personality and determine its level of inheritance. You would need to figure out actual genes that correlate with actual components of one's personality (these components could be labeled according to Jungian functions, I suppose), but we certainly have not gotten that far with genetics or neuroscience.

    On another note, our phenotypes are a result of our environment (in this case, upbringing) and our genes. If your parents are both NTs and you are also an NT, it could be due to genes or it could be due to being raised in an NT environment. Ya know, the whole nature vs. nurture game.

    It's quite silly to think, however, that both your parents being NTs and you are also being an NT is any indication that it's passed down through genes. This completely ignores environmental factors that go into creating our phenotypes.

  4. #24
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignazio View Post
    I'm an INTJ from a family people who are almost all NT's of some kind. Another user told me that he's basically in the same boat. Is this typical? Is personality determined by DNA? You know, 'cause if it is, I'm going to rub it in the face of everyone that believes in Tabula Rasa (kidding! Seriously though, what's the deal?).
    It really seems that way. I've definitely noticed a trend in my family, and in my friends families. I'm sure it's a combination of nature and nurture. My family consists of me:ISFP, my sister: ESFJ, my mom: ISFJ, and my dad: ESFP.
    In one of my exboyfriend's family, I've typed them as: ISFP, ISFP, INFP, INFp. So they were also a group of feeler's.
    Amongst one of my friend's family, I've typed the entire family as thinking types, for sure. INTP, INTJ... and the parent's most likely INTx of some sort.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  5. #25
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Typology is a pseudoscience, and there is absolutely no way to ascribe a science such as genetics to it.

    You can't just look outwardly look at a trait as complex as personality and determine its level of inheritance. You would need to figure out actual genes that correlate with actual components of one's personality (these components could be labeled according to Jungian functions, I suppose), but we certainly have not gotten that far with genetics or neuroscience.

    On another note, our phenotypes are a result of our environment (in this case, upbringing) and our genes. If your parents are both NTs and you are also an NT, it could be due to genes or it could be due to being raised in an NT environment. Ya know, the whole nature vs. nurture game.

    It's quite silly to think, however, that both your parents being NTs and you are also being an NT is any indication that it's passed down through genes. This completely ignores environmental factors that go into creating our phenotypes.
    I certainly don't know the science behind it, but do babies not display different temperaments and/or personalities? Some are more prone to crying and being easily scared, while others smile and laugh more often. We all begin trying to formulate the world around us at an early age, and it seems like even then, we might have the ability to be more emotional reactive or more logical reactive, no?

    I'm just trying to think through all this.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  6. #26
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    I certainly don't know the science behind it, but do babies not display different temperaments and/or personalities? Some are more prone to crying and being easily scared, while others smile and laugh more often. We all begin trying to formulate the world around us at an early age, and it seems like even then, we might have the ability to be more emotional reactive or more logical reactive, no?

    I'm just trying to think through all this.
    Sure, babies display certain temperaments.

    But are these temperaments due to something outside of the environment? Can we extrapolate from a baby's actions what his adult personality will be like? Do a baby's personality traits carry on into adulthood? Do babies even have personalities to the same complex degree that adults do? Are the genetic components of a baby's personality expressed enough for us to garner any information from it?

    Furthermore, it's important to realize that the essence of personality theory is not in our actions but in our motivations. We may see a baby behave a certain way in a certain context, but how much can we really say about that baby's personality without us knowing and/or it having certain thoughts?

    I think the argument could be made that babies do not have psyches that are developed enough to attribute its actions to its thoughts/values/beliefs and psychological motivations. At a young age, we are so psychologically primitive/underdeveloped that we are essentially at the will of biology and involuntary instinct.

  7. #27
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    From the wikipedia entry on Extraversion and Introversion:

    Quote Originally Posted by wikipedia
    The relative importance of nature versus environment in determining the level of extraversion is controversial and the focus of many studies. Twin studies find a genetic component of 39% to 58%. In terms of the environmental component, the shared family environment appears to be far less important than individual environmental factors that are not shared between siblings.[13]

    Eysenck proposed that extraversion was caused by variability in cortical arousal. He hypothesized that introverts are characterized by higher levels of activity than extraverts and so are chronically more cortically aroused than extraverts. The fact that extraverts require more external stimulation than introverts has been interpreted as evidence for this hypothesis. Other evidence of the "stimulation" hypothesis is that introverts salivate more than extraverts in response to a drop of lemon juice.[14]

    Extraversion has been linked to higher sensitivity of the mesolimbic dopamine system to potentially rewarding stimuli.[15] This in part explains the high levels of positive affect found in extraverts, since they will more intensely feel the excitement of a potential reward. One consequence of this is that extraverts can more easily learn the contingencies for positive reinforcement, since the reward itself is experienced as greater.

    One study found that introverts have more blood flow in the frontal lobes of their brain and the anterior or frontal thalamus, which are areas dealing with internal processing, such as planning and problem solving. Extraverts have more blood flow in the anterior cingulate gyrus, temporal lobes, and posterior thalamus, which are involved in sensory and emotional experience.[16] This study and other research indicates that introversion-extraversion is related to individual differences in brain function.
    So I think it's fairly clear that introversion and extraversion have some genetic component. I think it's not as clear that the other preferences do.

    Also keep in mind that even characteristics that have a strong genetic component are not simple on/off switches. There are often environmental influences (some of which need to be present during critical developmental periods) that affect gene expression as well.

    It gets even murkier when thinking about the functions, which are not specific behaviors but rather more on the order of meta-perspectives.

  8. #28
    Senior Member IndyGhost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    From the wikipedia entry on Extraversion and Introversion:



    So I think it's fairly clear that introversion and extraversion have some genetic component. I think it's not as clear that the other preferences do.

    Also keep in mind that even characteristics that have a strong genetic component are not simple on/off switches. There are often environmental influences (some of which need to be present during critical developmental periods) that affect gene expression as well.

    It gets even murkier when thinking about the functions, which are not specific behaviors but rather more on the order of meta-perspectives.
    You just reminded me of a study I saw on tv once on twins. I'm going to try and youtube search this in a moment, but the study was on twins separated at birth. They found that even though these twins grew up with completely different environments and had different external stimuli, that they grew up to be very similar. I recall two girls that were separated at a very early age, where one grew up in a wealthy home and went to a "privileged" private school while the other grew up in a more suburban background and in a public school. They were both average students, with most report cards having marks that were "B's" and "C's." Another set of twins that were separated had in common a background of weightlifting. Food for thought.
    "I don't know a perfect person.
    I only know flawed people who are still worth loving."
    -John Green

  9. #29
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    "Since, in the light of these facts, the attitude-type regarded as a general phenomenon having an apparent random distribution, can be no affair of conscious judgment or intention, its existence must be due to some unconscious instinctive cause. The contrast of types, therefore, as a, universal psychological. phenomenon, must in some way or other have its biological precursor.

    Although nothing would induce me to underestimate the well-nigh incalculable importance of parental influence, this experience compels me to conclude that the decisive factor must be looked for in the disposition of the child. The fact that, in spite of the greatest possible similarity of external conditions, one child will assume this type while another that, must, of course, in the last resort he ascribed to individual disposition.

    Under abnormal conditions, i.e. when there is an extreme and, therefore, abnormal attitude in the mother, the children can also be coerced into a relatively similar attitude; but this entails a violation of their individual disposition, which quite possibly would have assumed another type if no abnormal and disturbing external influence had intervened. As a rule, whenever such a falsification of type takes place as a result of external [p. 416] influence, the individual becomes neurotic later, and a cur can successfully be sought only in a development of that attitude which corresponds with the individual's natural way.



    -Jung

    I assume MBTI follows on from that.
    Jung would have learnt from Freud that the same childhood traumas could lead to different symptoms in different people. but yous till can't seperate the symptom from the trauma. Its neithe rpurely nqature nor nurture, nor a balance. Rather an interaction.

    Fair enough if you want to believe Jung dude, there's no mroe "proof" of my view than yours. But Jung's view just seems like a simplification when more viable theories had already been proposed.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #30
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I've seen a few of those programs since I'm an identical twin, myself. There are some theories that twins raised together become more different in order not to compete (and to establish their own independent identities). Still, those identical twins raised apart studies do often turn up eerie similarities and parallels.

    Since my twin brother is straight and conservative and I'm gay and (relatively) liberal, I will say that genetics aren't everything. Also, my twin is definitely a Thinker while I fall more on the Feeling side.

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