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  1. #1
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Default NTs and debate perceptions.

    There seems to be a common thing between many INTPs. Every word within a debate with them would end up analysed in which case the INTPs may often get confused to what people mean. It's never an "I know what you mean" with them when other's find it hard to properly express their opinions. The INTPs seem to expect perfect accuracy in other people's wordings which can get irritating as it may take up another whole conversation about what the message conveyed really meant.

    The ENTPs seem prone to getting confused but they still figure out what you mean quickly. ENTPs are different to INTPs in the sense that when they understand what someone means they may use their wordings against them within the debate. This would most likely lead to other conversations much less serious than the one that was being talked about as causing chaos in the debate rather than going through with it may start to become the ENTP's interest. It becomes an social experimental game.

    I, personally, am no proper conveyer of what I'm trying to express. Many never seem to understand what I say and I often fall into conversations about how I'm supposed to go about saying something rather than the issue we were discussing.
    I am unsure if INTJs in general experience the same problem. INTJs however seem to understand what people mean. They may often see the flaws yet they would usually disregard it and continue the debate. Occasionally they may also copy the ENTPs but at a lesser extent. I would think this would happen from an INTJ appeal towards the ENTPs way of social experimentation. But it would happen when the INTJ is not particularly feeling serious.

    ENTJs seem to be the ones prone to other people playing with their words yet the least interested in analysing each word in the sentence. Perhaps the most consistent when it comes to staying on topic. They understand quickly what other people are trying to say without getting confused by their wordings. This is good as this avoids floating away from the issue discussed however an ENTJ and INTP debating with each other may get the INTP confused often about what the ENTJ means and the ENTJ may get irritated from the depth of the analysis of the INTP with their words.

    I could have mentioned the functions affecting these types doing such. Perhaps someone else may want to do it.
    Does anyone else think differently?

  2. #2
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    There seems to be a common thing between many INTPs. Every word within a debate with them would end up analysed in which case the INTPs may often get confused to what people mean. It's never an "I know what you mean" with them when other's find it hard to properly express their opinions. The INTPs seem to expect perfect accuracy in other people's wordings which can get irritating as it may take up another whole conversation about what the message conveyed really meant.
    To be honest, I relate to this somewhat. It seems so natural for me to do it, but life has a way of teaching you that others aren't always fond of it. So, as you mature, you learn to do it less. You learn to choose your battles more wisely.

    Here's the thing: It's so natural for me to do this, that I do it without even thinking about it. If someone says something that is logically incorrect, it instantly shows up as an "error" on my radar. When someone is talking, I'm subconsciously "scanning" their words as they say them. There are some reasons this is good, and other reasons why it may not be so good. You mentioned why it may not be good. It makes conversation frustrating and tedious to some people and it may even make them not want to interact with us (we're secretely OK with that, but don't tell them that I said it ). Where it comes in handy is that if I'm doing a project at work or some personal project or starting a business, or studying for a test, or whatever the case may be, anything that is "wrong" stands out like an elephant in your bedroom. I can instantly see inconsistencies when I analyze something. So, I can easily break things down, deconstruct them, and start building a new foundation that will be correct and that will work correctly.


    I am unsure if INTJs in general experience the same problem. INTJs however seem to understand what people mean. They may often see the flaws yet they would usually disregard it and continue the debate.
    This is the part that is difficult for the INTP. Once I hear something come out of someone's mouth that is "wrong", then everything in our discussion that builds off of that incorrect premise, will also be flawed and/or irrelevant. Because the conversation is building on false/inaccurate assumptions.

    An example I've used before is where I'm talking to a particular person I know and they almost always bring up politics. So, we'll begin discussing. And then she will say something like, "The members of party X are just idiots. Party X just never gets anything right." And I'll say, "OK wait a second, are you saying that you truly believe that not one good thing has ever come from any member of Party X, even if we go back a hundred years?" And she will say, "Nope. They're idiots. They don't do anything good for this country."

    OK, as an INTP, once I hear that the conversation is finished. She is just making huge, idiotic generalizations. It's obvious to me that the things that are coming out of her mouth are coming from - well, I don't know where they're coming from - but I can say that they are coming from a place that is "faulty". Coming from a place where "stuff" just spews out randomly like lava from a volcano. There's no logic, accuracy, or order to her words. She's just throwing flames. There's nothing more to discuss. We can't go forward because it will all be based on premises that are "junk".

    INTP's even get a "radar hit" with small inconsistencies. If my boss says to me, "I have something to talk to you about. Yesterday when I saw you over there in the early afternoon....." I might stop him right there and say, "It was about 11:30am when you saw me because I hadn't gone to lunch yet." And if he says, "Oh yes, it was about 11:30", then I know we are on the same page and can continue. But, if he says, "No, it was after 12pm when I saw you - probably 12:30", then I know that we need to "clear up this small issue" before we can proceed to the bigger issue. If we continue on the faulty assumption that I saw him at 12:30, then it warps the rest of the conversation - provided that the conversation is about "timelines and when certain things happened" during the day. (which may or may not be the case)

    It's good for the INTP because: you can't tell us that we did something wrong unless you have your facts straight. If you don't have your facts straight, you shouldn't even bring it up to the INTP because we will realize very quickly that you have no idea what you are talking about.

    It's bad for the INTP because: we often STOP the conversation to clear something up when it's not necessary. Sometimes people will say, "OK, 11:30, 12:30, doesn't matter. That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking something different."

    So, you're right. It can be frustrating to the other person. But, there is a positive side to it as well. Accuracy, precision, and other people cannot easily "pull the wool over our eyes". We will spot every single hole in your argument.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #3
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    i only know one intj, but he just ignores anything that is against his point of view and tries to force his own point of view, which is usually pretty screwed up because he tends to judge everything too quickly before having a full understanding about it. of course he thinks he understands it fully, but really he just understands if it fits in his own model of thinking or not
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  4. #4
    XES 5231311252's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    There seems to be a common thing between many INTPs. Every word within a debate with them would end up analysed in which case the INTPs may often get confused to what people mean. It's never an "I know what you mean" with them when other's find it hard to properly express their opinions. The INTPs seem to expect perfect accuracy in other people's wordings which can get irritating as it may take up another whole conversation about what the message conveyed really meant.
    Again, I don't know if this has to do with my type, but I find myself doing this often. I dissect everything that is said or written and will concentrate on a specific sentence or word if it bothers me.
    “'Fuck', I think. What a beautiful word. If I could say only one thing for the rest of my life, that would be it.”

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lucas's Avatar
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    I tend to do word analysis only when we are well into a discussion, and it seems like the different outcomes we are getting are based on different definitions of words.

    Beyond that, I do hate it when people are imprecise, and it can definitely be an effort to stop myself from correcting them.

    I think the
    It's never an "I know what you mean" with them when other's find it hard to properly express their opinions.
    comes from two sources. The first is that I hate to make assumptions about what other people mean.
    The second is that I am really bad at interpreting what others mean unless they say so precisely.

  6. #6
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    This is what I have to say about that. Sometimes there are issues that are just not debatable - well as far as I'm concerned anyway. Thought I probably could engage in a debate with someone regarding certain things because I actually do "understand" the conceptual framework for such a debate, I just won't. For instance, things like disease -especially AIDS, cruelty to animals and children, disabilities, you know, things that actually effect others in this world in a deep and very painful way - NOT UP FOR DEBATE AT ALL! And other things like deeply private information - oh, I dunno, maybe something like how many blow jobs she gave him. And just how many times he called hr a slut. Yeah, you know - things like this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Stevo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    There seems to be a common thing between many INTPs. Every word within a debate with them would end up analysed in which case the INTPs may often get confused to what people mean. It's never an "I know what you mean" with them when other's find it hard to properly express their opinions. The INTPs seem to expect perfect accuracy in other people's wordings which can get irritating as it may take up another whole conversation about what the message conveyed really meant.
    I know that I often have to suppress the urge to correct people in casual conversation---otherwise nothing will be accomplished. But it's sometimes astounding how many casual errors people make while speaking (And I sit there holding my tongue with a pained expression) and how difficult it is to not correct them. In debates or arguments, however, I will be relentless. Casual conversation I watch myself for politeness' sake.

  8. #8
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevo View Post
    I know that I often have to suppress the urge to correct people in casual conversation---otherwise nothing will be accomplished. But it's sometimes astounding how many casual errors people make while speaking (And I sit there holding my tongue with a pained expression) and how difficult it is to not correct them. In debates or arguments, however, I will be relentless. Casual conversation I watch myself for politeness' sake.
    +58
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  9. #9
    Senior Member ThinkingAboutIt's Avatar
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    I would reply, but I am having difficulty expressing myself
    Yeah, it is difficult. When it comes to issues/feelings, I usually just don't, though that is changing...and it is giving me wrinkles!!!

    When I am talking to someone, I am listening to/reading what they are saying, what they are trying to say, and whether I like it or not, automatically hearing what they are trying not to say (I am usually aware of things before the person I am talking to is. I guess you can say I see through people.)

    When it comes to 'debate', I need properly defined subjects/words so I know what we are discussing. My mind is like a search engine and WIKI - a dictionary, thesaurus, encyclopedia, rolled in one so when someone says something or asks me a question causing to me think, my mind is like a shotgun firing - all those pellets are info potentially connected to the topic at hand. There may be multiple areas with a heavier 'concentration', but in the end, there is a main core or two that hits the target by the time it is all said and done. If you give me an incorrect search term, don't blame me for the incorrect results! By the way, this is why we 'rabbit trail' haha, the info is pertinent, but other people don't see the connection. Defining things correctly helps keep my mind 'on target'; especially if I don't know the person that is talking as I have little else to filter with.

    I do totally lose respect for people that intentionally use incorrect definitions and wording - I mean when they *know* something is not the correct definition, yet they persist in using it anyway as if it then becomes something unique to them...it isn't, it doesn't, it causes confusion, and it's just ignorant.
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

  10. #10
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    It must be age or something. Unless it is a topic/concept/belief that is important to me and/or the people engaged in the discussion are important, these days I tend to sit back and listen or walk away - unless I am feeling mischievous that is.

    When logic gives way to fallacious argument or nonsensical information being touted as fact, where something is important to me, I am incisively meticulous in correcting the issue particularly when such argument is used to persuade the uninformed or the innocent.

    If not important to me and I am in a social setting, particularly where people are becoming insulting to each other, I will walk away. If no-one I care about (including the disadvantaged and those who cannot defend themselves) is being harmed or slandered what do I care if they have at each other verbally?

    I have well developed Fi as my tertiary to a strong primary of Ne and secondary of Ti and have walked into a room full of aggressive tension and disharmony and I can feel it make the hair on my neck stand on end when I enter the room. I tend to want to turn around and walk out and sometimes do!???
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
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