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  1. #21
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    Ah, I could see how that could be a problem. Is this not a common problem facing all types though? We can only other stand other points of view by attempting to mirror them, but in doing so we mix in our own set of experiences and our own understanding of what others are trying to say.
    It is common problem in each types own way, however, this is mostly in the field of debate and argument and I would say the INTPs fall prone to such misunderstandings because of the meta-analysis of the words used.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You are disregarding some things that make the system work properly. INTP doesent add to the meaning with the Ti analysis(unlike INTJ with Te), but removes from the context that you communicate using T(what is it) analysis(creates what is not type of analysis). because INTP is P type, he will mainly add to the context from perception of what you say.
    -> what you say is taken in fully(every word you say), but the parts that doesent make sense(contradict what you said earlier or i experienced earlier(Si) or is illogical(Ti)) is removed from what you say and isnt taken into further consideration.

    These contradictions in your thinking(what you communicated) are pointed out
    -> "why do you say that?"
    if you cant give me a reason for contradictions, you lack something in your thinking
    -> "you are wrong because of X"
    if you can explain the contradiction, i lacked something in my perception that would had an effect to my thinking(this usually happens because the other party didnt communicate some central point in his argument
    -> "i was wrong because i lacked X"
    You are describing the thought processes within the general INTP mindset according to the functions. But it is precisely that process that brings about the misunderstanding of the other individuals the INTP would be communicating to. The contradiction that is pointed out is where I play within the idea of the misunderstandings. It happens because the INTP notices the logical fallacy within what the individual says by the specific wordings used. So is it the mistake of the INTP not getting what the individual means or the individual not using the correct terminology in great accuracy?

    dunno if you know this, but quite many INTP descriptions say that usually when INTP comes to false conclusions, its not because of poor logic, but because of overlooking details.
    Sounds like the description of any typical N profile.
    This same thing can happen when talking with people, but the 'overlooking details' part comes from the other person not communicating some central point to the context that you try to communicate. its either missing in his thinking(he is wrong), its there but not communicated(his communication is flawed) or im missing something that i can use to combine what seems illogical to other info to make it logical(im missing some info or had wrong info about something).
    I believe two of these are what is to be brought about with the thought of the misunderstanding INTP. There may be a lack of awareness in the individual themselves which brings the INTP to filter the information in as if given raw, giving the INTP the inability to use external subjective information as a guide to connect to the conclusions of the individual.

    Then ofc there is the differences in communication between Ni dom and Ti dom. INTJ communicates abstraction(things that seem relevant) about his internal perception, INTP communicates abstraction of logic(central points that can be used to build logical understanding).
    Also these abstractions are made from different elements. with INTJ the internal perception(Ni abstraction) is built from details and facts from external world, INTJ also uses abstraction of worth(Fi) which tells what is worth to be takwn into the abstraction. with INTP the logical bastraction is built from worth of things in external world(Fe, including what some info is worth/is it worth taking into consideration) and big picture perception(Ne), INTP also uses abstraction based of what is(Si).

    And degree of worth abstraction(Fi) in INTJ changes based on the external perceptions(Se) and external facts(Te). same with INTPs Si abstraction, but it changes on principles of Fe and Ne.
    And so with the Fi abstraction the previous statement folds on. The lack of that worth with the INTPs filtering things out. The lack of empathetic alignment of the individual throws off the INTP when the individual does not communicate in exact terms. A difference with the INTJ.
    What you said about INTPs drawing false conclusions(thinking he understands, but in reality doesent) is true in communication if you fail to communicate properly.
    Bingo. You need to be very accurate to the INTP in your wording. My initial statement in the OP regarded as INTPs being most prone to the such misunderstanding.
    but what way more annoying is that INTJs are prone of doing the same thing, but when gathering information freely from a source. because what INTJ is doing is sort of reprogramming his whole thinking about the subject and will communicate things that are simply not true, but the INTJ will be convinced that it is. thats because of Fi is doing the rational abstractions -> he thinks that some info thats not even true is relevant to his conclusions and he wont let go of his false conclusions, because the whole system of thought would fail and ego doesent want that to happen.
    The thread is highlighting each NT type falling to the misunderstanding of the arguments of another. Not each type being wrong in their arguments. INTJs will understand what you say and how you see things but may not agree with it (because of the ego or whatever else). The conflict arises at such a point with such arguments.

    From what i have noticed INTJs are the worst type to communicate properly AND worst type to give reasoning for thought, also one of the most stubborn type to change conclusions, even tho their thought has been totally debunked.. even my mentally ill INFP is doing so good on this that i got no problems on communicating with him properly(he gives sufficient reasoning if i ask for it or changes his perception if he cant reason, except ofc when it comes to matter of worth), no problems with ENTP(he does seem to be able to communicate with INTJ better than me). also INFP and INTJ(who are room mates) have hard time communicating properly.

    Anyways cba to write more now
    Yep, I can see where the INTP falls to arguments with an INTJ. My initial post said the ENTJ tend to be the worst but I can certainly see the inclinations. I've seen a bit of your trouble with INTJs on the many threads you reply to them but what I'd really like to have a look at is the play you'd give in a debate with an ENTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think one thing you are seeing is the difference between Ne and Ti being in charge. Ne is a big-picture perspective and is seeking to find broad patterns of similarity among things, connecting them together. Maybe that is the best word for it -- it is a "connecting" perspective, just as it is used in brainstorming to leap from one idea to another that has SOME aspect in similar to the prior one. So Ne in discussion/argument will use this connective style to both form a tighter bond between ideas (if they are working to agree with you) or else use it to surprise you (to win a point / get the upper hand) or even explore a completely new region of the discussion that was being ignored.

    Meanwhile, Ti is a "precision" function. It describes the exact relationship of one idea to the other; it is not interested in showing loose connection, it needs to show exact connection and it also shows flow since logic is sequential. As such, it actually ends up describing the differences more than the similarities (since everything outside the nuanced logic of what is being described is less correct/precise).

    If you are building a watch, or the Space Shuttle, or a skyscraper, for example, you cannot afford to not be precise; if the system does not fit together precisely, then something will not function efficiently or perhaps even not at all. You will have cogs that do not mesh nor fit inside the casing; you will have a space vehicle that is not air-tight and that might not even fly or could even explode when taking off; you will have buildings with gaps in the foundation, ruining their structural safety. Even a small deviation can cause huge errors. Likewise, T is used to "architect ideas" to the same degree of precision, and the wings of a butterfly fluttering on one side of the world might create larger deviations in air currents elsewhere.

    (For example, something as trivial as a specific date gotten wrong in a history discussion could change the entire context of what a particular fact means, thus misrepresenting the statement and leading to an untruth or a lesser truth. Or a particular word used in the wrong place would put stress on the wrong part of the logical statement, altering its meaning... and that mistake in meaning could magnify to result in a bad assumption later in the argument.)

    So that's the issue. This is why ambiable ENTPs often seem to be engaging conversation and moving it along, whereas INTPs can seem to drag down the pace of the conversation and get hung up on small items that seem irrelevant to those painting with a broader brush but to the INTP can seem very crucial to the accuracy of the argument. And if something is inaccurate, then it is undependable and arbitrary and can't be used for anything, so why even bother?

    That, I think, is the typical reasoning being used.
    Thanks for that. Yes, absolutely, It brings about clarity in the functions of each type when giving out thoughts. The relation with every constructed argument and word used within the analysis bring about a certain importance it seems. The trouble is caused when the individual is expected to be a construction manual laying things out word-for-word in precision and would be unable to do so.
    I'd suppose ENTPs who fall to Ti usage within debate scatter themselves with inaccurate conclusions based on Ne pattern inducing and Ti connections.
    Personally, intuitively speaking, I would say ENTPs tend to be greatly inaccurate approximately 1 out of 5 times in their deductions. I'd assume it's fair.

    I'm not sure about that; and really, you're an INTJ so of course you understand them, while I typically can read an INTP's comments and understand exactly what they're saying and why, even if I disagree with it because I think they've overlooked something or have wrongly emphasized something.

    To be honest, NTJ's kind of confound me; I can't "see into you" and see how you got to where you are and thus understand it, because you don't typically explain your logic. I do typically have NTJs nod and smile when I talk to them and explain, and they sound like they get what I'm saying and/or agree, but I don't get back that explanation in turn so I can see and follow their own thinking and see that we are in sync.
    I'd assume many INTJs tend to either expect you to do your self work to figure it out or to take them for granted with what they say. The difference between the levels of maturity within different INTJs would perhaps be the tact used to give out the given information. The blind spot is perhaps the thought that the other individual may have the given empathy to figure it out and so types like the INTP might tend to fall short on such things.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    I'd assume many INTJs tend to either expect you to do your self work to figure it out or to take them for granted with what they say. The difference between the levels of maturity within different INTJs would perhaps be the tact used to give out the given information. The blind spot is perhaps the thought that the other individual may have the given empathy to figure it out and so types like the INTP might tend to fall short on such things.
    Yeah. Honestly, I try very hard to "figure people out" and I think I do a good job if I have data and patterns to work with. it's like a fun puzzle to me, to get a sense of someone and how they work.

    But there is just something impenetrable to me regarding Ni function, I just can't project into it. I've found when I assume things about INJ's in particular, I end up being wrong about half the time, so I'm loathe to try to guess too much. I'd rather have you give me some more data points to work with first.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah. Honestly, I try very hard to "figure people out" and I think I do a good job if I have data and patterns to work with. it's like a fun puzzle to me, to get a sense of someone and how they work.

    But there is just something impenetrable to me regarding Ni function, I just can't project into it. I've found when I assume things about INJ's in particular, I end up being wrong about half the time, so I'm loathe to try to guess too much. I'd rather have you give me some more data points to work with first.
    Not so easy to get the explanation I'd believe. You'd have to work hard to get them to work hard to give you what you wish for. And the time to prove something the INTJs would find insignificant would be something they might find would make them dismiss the proposal altogether.

  4. #24
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    Yeah. That's a problem I've been increasing noting with INTP and INTJ relations. Wow, it's amazing how hard we have to work, being only one letter removed on the chart... I find ISJs much easier to follow, actually.

    I think when I've discussed with Umlauu and others before, it's like you guys just "see the picture" and I'm sure it's hard for you to explain the picture when it's so obvious.... it's like trying to analyze art.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    The Eighth Colour Octarine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakysage View Post
    It is common problem in each types own way, however, this is mostly in the field of debate and argument and I would say the INTPs fall prone to such misunderstandings because of the meta-analysis of the words used.
    Ok.
    I guess the difference for me is that I'm not so interested in convincing the other person in a logical argument, but rather guiding and developing thoughts. This necessarily involves probing and development of conceptual understanding, rather than precision of language. Precision in language requires both parties to have the same familiarity with the technical terms involved and this is rarely the case in real world debates. This is why I said I'd rather clarify than proceed. Unlike someone like Socrates for example, who likes to trap others in debate due to the lack of precision in their language (which is presumed to reflect their thought).

    How do you expect the debating styles and perceptions to change over time as individuals become older and more experienced?

  6. #26
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    Only read the OP.

    The ENTJ stuff was pretty on point.

    The tendency of INTP's (and threads on the site generally) to get too focused on the meaning of each individual word (aka the battle of the dictionaries) really bugs me sometimes.

    I generally don't have too much of a hard time getting what others are saying, and get frustrated when I have to explain every piece to people.

    It takes me back to math class and the teacher always telling me to show my work, when I just want to write the answer and move on.

  7. #27
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catbert View Post
    Ok.
    I guess the difference for me is that I'm not so interested in convincing the other person in a logical argument, but rather guiding and developing thoughts. This necessarily involves probing and development of conceptual understanding, rather than precision of language. Precision in language requires both parties to have the same familiarity with the technical terms involved and this is rarely the case in real world debates. This is why I said I'd rather clarify than proceed. Unlike someone like Socrates for example, who likes to trap others in debate due to the lack of precision in their language (which is presumed to reflect their thought).

    How do you expect the debating styles and perceptions to change over time as individuals become older and more experienced?
    You seem to bear a greater use of an N function in difference to the archetypical INTP when in certain debate catbert. But yes, the clarification process is certainly a trait I'd be referring to depending on how one goes about with such clarification. But then that also comes to not fully understanding and wanting to keep in the right direction which is quite in difference to the initial statement. I'd suppose that would be quite normal for the general debater.

    I've mentioned something in a previous post about the way debaters grow and I'd believe they tend to remain similar in execution but with greater tact and wordings to properly allow other individuals to chew at the right pace. Quite simply, the processes of debate remain the same but the range of the general lack of understanding becomes narrower.

  8. #28
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    INTP pickiness drives me INSANE. In response to their nitpickiness, I'm like, you know goddamn fucking well what I meant. They typically know their shit, granted, but that's likely because they split every fuckin hair, examine and overanalyze each atom under a microscope, split each atom one by one and...



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  9. #29
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    I bit off the topic but I just couldn't resist...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah. That's a problem I've been increasing noting with INTP and INTJ relations. Wow, it's amazing how hard we have to work, being only one letter removed on the chart... I find ISJs much easier to follow, actually
    That said, just try to imagine the feeling of having two persons inside my head now that I am an INTx. One wants to understand everything as precisely and open-mindedly as possible while the other one wants to follow it's intuition somewhat narrow-mindedly to solve a specific problem

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    INTJs will understand what you say and how you see things but may not agree with it (because of the ego or whatever else). The conflict arises at such a point with such arguments.
    This is exactly what im talking about. i explained why INTJ doesent even try to understand and you just say that INTJ understands.

    For proper communication, you are supposed to say why the INTJ understands, but doesent take into account. i explained how the ego prevents from understanding, you said that ego doesent prevent from understanding, but prevents from taking things into account. Right?

    There was again one good example about this few days ago. INTJ noticed that ENTP has a weird tactics to shut me up when im talking and not interested on listening(understanding). INTJ noticed that the ENTP will listen, nod and then say the reason why im wrong(if i am) and tell how the thing actually is and reason behind it, while adding what i was missing(that led me to false conclusion). the funny thing was that the INTJ only understood how well it worked to shut me up, but failed to understand that the ENTP simply listened, tried to understand what im saying and only after then corrected with reasoning. it was like this was some whole new way for INTJ to function, he never even thought that he could try this sort of method, even tho i always ask for reason from him if i fail to understand or think that he is wrong and had told him many times that he should do this.

    Why didnt he understand this when i said it to him like 200+ times, but saw it instantly when someone else did it and was able to "shut me up"?

    Its simple, the INTJ didnt even try to understand when i said it, he saw no reason to understand, because he didnt see what it leads to. and if he had understood me when i said it many many times, he would had understood what it leads to(me not trying to change his mind/arguing). but when he saw ENTP do this, he just saw what it led to, but didnt understand why ENTP was doing this. he didnt do it to shut me up(like the INTJ saw it as), but to correct what i was saying wrong. i mean how can you correct someone if you dont even try to understand what the other person is saying? instead the INTJ says that he is right and im wrong and when i ask why(what the ENTP does automatically), he wont give any reasonong, instead he just stops lisyening when i ask why he is right an im wrong.. and whats the most annoying thing about this, is that the INTJ will nod and act as if he were listening, but when i ask his opinion, he just says that he stopped listening while ago. sometimes he might do this like 5 minutes before i notice him not listening. he just says that i should notice that hes not listening, even tho he acts as if he were listening.. makes no sense.

    Anyways back to that ENTP thing. when i heard the INTJ amazing the ENTPs ability to shut me up, i told to the INTJ that its called trying to understand what the other person is saying and that he should try it, instead of pretending that he listens. this is what people normally do, but the INTJ doesent understand this.. the INTJ is the only person i know that does this(except ENFP when she is annoyed), no problems with communicating with other types, because they try to understand and because they try to understand and tell me if they dont, they will understand, because ill try to find different ways to communicate with them if they dont understand my first or second explanation.

    What the INTJ is missing is giving feed back when communicating(if you can even call it communication as info only travels one way, from INTJ to me but what i say is blocked out by INTJ, thus not responded).

    One good example of this(that happened same day that the ENTP was around) was when we were discussing how some brain area works, 3 of us. INTJ was trying to figure out why smells have so strong emotional connection. i told the INTJ the reason, he stopped listening half way and said that we need to check wikipedia. well while the ENTP was trying to find an explanation from wikipedia, i took the slides(pdf on my phone) from my neuropsychology class and tried to show them to the INTJ, it was a simple picture + few words explaining it. the INTJ didnt want to look at the picture more than one second, didnt read the text(nor listened me when i read it to him) and said that the source may not be trusted(i mean come on university lecturer who has had founds from government many times for researches on cognitive neurosciences, is less trusted than wikipedia page, lol) .. i tried to explain it while holding the picture at his face for like 4 minutes before they found the same answer(even one of the pictures was the same in wiki and my slides), he just simply refused to listen me. and when the ENTP showed the wiki page that explained it, he was like ohhh thats how it works..

    Yeah good job at trying to understand others.

    Similar stuff has happened nearly everytime im discussing with him.

    Yesterday when we were smoking weed, he went like wow weird and explained how his perception changed in weird ways. basically from Ni Se to Ne Si. i wanted to explain jungs view on this(but i know that the explanation cant be too long or he will stop listening), first i tried to tell him that some people perceive the big picture from external world and details inside and other people do this the other way around. That he was able to take in, but when i said that jung explained this by people using different functions, he stopped listening(luckily i have started to see whwn he stops listening sometimes quite fast, at least if i can predict that he may stop listening soon because of the subject). then i told him that i perceive all the time, the way he perceived for a moment when he was stoned. And that when im stoned i kinda switch to his normal way of perceiving. that he was able to understand. then i made a mistake and told that "or its more like that his way of perceiving comes as a standard when im stoned, but im also able to perceive as i perceive normally when im stoned", it was too much for him to take in and he stopped listening half way. i know that this isnt really about debating, but it explains that the same way that leads to idiotic debating from his side, is so deep in his functions that it extends to other things also.

    Ultimately its about if the INTJ doesent see the worth of something someone said(lack of trust to the source of info or snap judgment about its relevance, that is usually wrong), he doesent see any reason to try to understand the other person. and im not the only one he does this with, the ENTP is the only reliable real life human source of info for him, he doesent even believe what the lecturers said to him when he was in uni, if it went against his insights/delusions about the subject
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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