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Thread: Christian NTJs?

  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well I mostly brought him up in regards to the issue of the intellectual tradition of Christianity, and just made a passing remark of how such a form of argumentation would seem to be appeal to NTJs. I didn't mean to imply he actually is INTJ.
    Okay, that's fine. I was just clarifying because of the thread subject line.

    I've read at least one paper by him (I think it included the details of his own spiritual/philosophical journey) but can't remember the details right now, it was probably five years ago.

    Department of Philosophy // University of Notre Dame
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  2. #32
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I am spiritual and religious, but not Christian.

  3. #33
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am spiritual and religious, but not Christian.
    Mmkay. What religion?

  4. #34
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    I was raised Roman Catholic and have a father and grandmother who are heavily influenced by religion. I care much about them and their opinion of me, so I think I believe in the Catholic Church (around them) as not to upset them, or worse disappoint them.

    I believe in a higher power deep, deep, deep, deep down I think. I heard somewhere once that you can't blame God and not believe in him at the same time -- this struck me as true and I as I do my fair share of "Thank sweet baby Jesus!" and "WTF, GOD?!" moments, I feel as though I must believe. I find it comforting to believe in God and religion.

    Though, I will say that I am often envious of those who are devout religious people who seem to have their lives all figured out, and if they don't, God will help them.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.

    That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.



    Do you know what's caused the change? What makes you less certain?
    This is going to sound strange or implausible maybe, I have always understood religion in two ways, one its a creedo for this life, in that purpose it serves well and probably better than some alternatives, even if I where an agnostic or athiest I would think this, the other point is an experience, a personal relationship with a personal deity, the presence of God.

    I think many people experience the former and not the later, so it becomes easy to dispense with religion or trade in or trade up like its a used car, in the main people who experience the later are mystics and the like.

    I'd always thought that I was pretty lucky because by reason and feeling I knew there was a God and practiced living in their presence, it was a presence to me, something similar to a long term relationship or having a dear, distant relative who you're planning to move back with once college/university is finished. With this there was a lot of consolation and certainty, its the certainty that's the important part.

    However I started to read Alexander Lowen, he's a psycho-analyst who features Julian Janes in one of his books, Janes explains how through neuroscience many spiritual experiences can be explained in psychological terms, its not exactly delusion in a prejorative sense but it could be in an objective sense.

    Its perhaps something to do with how the argument is made because many of the other criticisms of religion, especially Dawkins, dont phase me at all, I've no problem with evolutionary or un-Godly or "abscence of a diety" theories of our and the universe's origins, I tend to perceive them as based on serious misapprehension and human, all too human, invented obsticles.

    So I think that following this discovery I've had a few days in which I experienced the world as a different, dreadful, place, without the prospect of an afterlife or God (which in some ways is the greater deal, my own personal spiritually doesnt conceptualise an afterlife as a place teaming with people, the idea of some kind of celestial library has its appeal sometimes but its really about God, not a reinvention or sembalence of life on earth). It was a little heart breaking.

    The position I'm in now is one of considering that I'll not feel the same way I did before, once certainty's lost you dont get it back, although I dont feel convinced of alternative, athiestic or agnostic beliefs. I'm reading John of The Cross' Dark Night of The Soul, it seems to have some parallels.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I So why the crash? What maintained your beliefs for so long, and what resulted in you no longer being able to maintain them?
    Its not that I can no longer maintain them, its that I have a suspiscion now that they are false, persisting in error, even where its a comforting, consoling or in some way constructive and progressive error is still error. Is it going to change my daily life, no, although living with doubt is personally different from living with certainty.

    There are no easy reconciliations between logic and emotion/faith/passion, but it still has to be explored, imo. We have to be willing to live in the ambiguous and indecipherable intersect between the two, as part of being human.
    True, true.

  7. #37
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    Christian ENTJ here. An INFP buddy of mine is convinced that Mark Driscoll, a pastor in Seattle, is one as well. I've also heard that Malcolm X and the Apostle Paul were ENTJs. He is also pretty sure that John Calvin was an INTJ. I've also wondered the type of Mohammad. From what I understand, he definitely had a natural leadership and strategic military ability, which seems XNTJ to me.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll echo the comments on Ni.

    INTPs are more flexible in some ways but in terms of the Ti logic, I think it's more demanding.
    Ti takes evidence and then sees where it goes regardless or what they WANT to believe, and won't budge extra just to fill in a picture.
    Hence, the common agnostic view among INTPs, although you will find atheists and believers in there depending on their experiences.

    INTJ's tend to just "see truth" and then spend time supporting it.
    So their faith depends on their initial sight or the big "connect the dots" picture they see.
    They will connect dots that an INTP will refuse to on principle.
    I think you're right. Out of the two, INTJs (with Ni and Fi) are definitely the more spiritually inclined ones. The INTJ's reliance on the irrational is continually underestimated. Almost all INTJs I know have some form of a spiritual side to them, me included. Meaning and symbol are important to us, logic isn't in itself.

    I consider myself agnostic, but at the same I'm really pretty open to the rites and symbols that come with religious/spiritual experiences (doesn't have to be Christian either)...it's soothing, it's part of how humans experience life...it's narrative. Just because meaning is created doesn't mean it is meaningless, I suppose. It's a way of connecting and altering experience. I dislike the church as an institution (which seems much more SJ and from what I know seems overwhelmingly Fe in the US) and don't follow dogma or rules.

  9. #39
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Mmkay. What religion?
    I don't belong to any church. I was raised Catholic, but abandoned that long ago. It seems my view of God has broadened to include many influences, principally the incorporation of the feminine aspect missing from so many "religions of the book", and the consideration of religious myths as exactly that: myths rather than fact. I take great interest in the common threads that run through most religions, as well as their differing expressions. I thus willingly discuss my spiritual beliefs, but hesitate to put labels on myself.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In terms of intellectual depth, here's an interview with Rene Girard - a very prominent French Christian intellectual:
    He says, "Christianity destroys myth," but isn't it more like "Christianity is the true myth"?

    BTW, I'm also a Christian INTJ.

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