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Thread: Christian NTJs?

  1. #21
    Senior Member Reflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weber View Post
    Yes, religious faith is one of the subjects where a clear difference between INTPs and INTJs is shown. Many of the former will simply refuse to take a stand on a matter they perceive to be on the fringes of what rational inquiry can answer for them.

    Atheist INTJ reporting in, by the way.
    Refusing to take a stand, agnostic INTP here.
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.

  2. #22

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    I'm an ENTJ, I've no doubt about the NTJ for the most part altough I do waver between I and E (or maybe E's just get socially exhausted too).

    I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.

    I'm less incline to strongly experience, or rather strongly trust feeling, and I know a lot of religious people do, many of the mystical or spiritual exercises that interest me seem to accentuate this or involve ordeals which place people in a feelings dominant or intellect impaired, paralysed or pressurised somehow if you know what I mean.

    In some ways that's disappointing for me, I'm still reading and seriously considering the literature in this respect (and not just Christian although I revise most of what I find from other cultures in accordance with the Christian insights I have) but I dont tend to find any rationalists which are that interested in God or an afterlife and spirituality besides challenging or condemning or breaking down the convictions of others.

  3. #23
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    My sister is a Christian INTJ.
    Doorknob: Read the directions and directly you will be directed in the right direction.
    -Alice in Wonderland

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    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In terms of intellectual depth, here's an interview with Rene Girard - a very prominent French Christian intellectual: [video]
    I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.

    That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.
    Do you know what's caused the change? What makes you less certain?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddly Refined View Post
    My sister is a Christian INTJ.
    UseHerName is pretty firmly Christian and INTJ, although she's not here much nowadays. But she's pretty heavily involved in the faith.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
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    Based purely on functionality I would say that NTJ's would'nt have problems believing in a god, it may not be the one everyone else believes in, but I'm sure they could easily construct something, Intj's more so, then entj's.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    I knew already of the aesthetic differences. The architecture of European churches to me is more awe-inspiring and glorious while ours generally tend to be bland, constructed with more plain materials, remnants of our Puritan roots.
    Well there are beautiful churches in America made in the European fashion in our major cities.

    That video of Girard was wonderful. The full interview is here.
    Well I figure a few minute excerpt would be more managable.

    Although it's not like America hasn't produced it's own religious intellectuals. However since the 1960s, they're usually less known than before. Alvin Plantinga is probably the most prominent American religious scholar alive:
    [youtube="oL5rykiekBs"]Prof. Plantinga[/youtube]

    Getting back to topic, certainly religious argumentation like ^^^(or Girard's before) would seem to appeal more to NTJs.

  8. #28
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'll echo the comments on Ni.

    INTPs are more flexible in some ways but in terms of the Ti logic, I think it's more demanding.
    Ti takes evidence and then sees where it goes regardless or what they WANT to believe, and won't budge extra just to fill in a picture.
    Hence, the common agnostic view among INTPs, although you will find atheists and believers in there depending on their experiences.

    INTJ's tend to just "see truth" and then spend time supporting it.
    So their faith depends on their initial sight or the big "connect the dots" picture they see.
    They will connect dots that an INTP will refuse to on principle.

    Or maybe I'm wrong. Feedback is welcome.
    Your thoughts on Ni in INTJs make sense to me. And seeing how there are more of them signing in than ENTJs at the moment I'd even be inclined to say you're totally right, which is giving me another thread idea...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Although it's not like America hasn't produced it's own religious intellectuals. However since the 1960s, they're usually less known than before. Alvin Plantinga is probably one of the more prominent American religious scholars alive:
    I did not bring up Plantinga because I didn't think he was an INTJ. (He seemed more INTP.) But I'm not sure.

    He's definitely a prominent name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I have to say that up until relatively lately I've been very certain in my beliefs, really because it wasnt simply a belief in an abstract or removed sense but was a lived experience, with some reading and investigation (I'm not really content with the just "is", I tend to ask "why" or "how" and continually search) I've lost that certainty and I've tried to recover it or understand it.
    So why the crash? What maintained your beliefs for so long, and what resulted in you no longer being able to maintain them?

    I'm less incline to strongly experience, or rather strongly trust feeling, and I know a lot of religious people do, many of the mystical or spiritual exercises that interest me seem to accentuate this or involve ordeals which place people in a feelings dominant or intellect impaired, paralysed or pressurised somehow if you know what I mean.
    I'm wary of emotions, but at the same time, human beings are holistic creatures. Anything that encompasses the reality of what a human being is has to include thinking, feeling, conviction, perception, and a host of things.

    From my own experience, distrust of emotion is caused by reliance on logic. Logic cannot process emotion fully or understand it. So emotion can seem faulty, unpredictable, and untrustworthy. But it's still part of what people are, so somehow it must be included in the mix.

    Lauren Slater included an interesting chapter in her book "Skinner's Box," which are essays about various large conjectures within the psychology movement (such Skinner's behavioral approach, or Milgram's "torture" experiment back in the 60's). One chapter involves her conversation with a woman whose coma-ridden daughter seemed to be able to "heal the sick" who came and laid hands on her. It's an interesting exploration of the issues between faith and tangible reality -- especially in highlighting the ambiguity of what is occurring and even how the mother maintains her faith in light of ambiguous facts.

    There are no easy reconciliations between logic and emotion/faith/passion, but it still has to be explored, imo. We have to be willing to live in the ambiguous and indecipherable intersect between the two, as part of being human.

    I dont tend to find any rationalists which are that interested in God or an afterlife and spirituality besides challenging or condemning or breaking down the convictions of others.
    Rationalists deconstruct by nature; it's the instinctive approach.
    You might as well expect a surgeon not to think about cutting things.

    The next step is for a rationalist to embrace the flip side of the coin -- that every act of destruction is an act permitting creation, and to move toward that frightening spot.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I did not bring up Plantinga because I didn't think he was an INTJ. (He seemed more INTP.) But I'm not sure.

    He's definitely a prominent name.
    Well I mostly brought him up in regards to the issue of the intellectual tradition of Christianity, and just made a passing remark of how such a form of argumentation would seem to be appeal to NTJs. I didn't mean to imply he actually is INTJ.

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