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  1. #51
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    I'll just be here in the corner, pissing on the collected works of Jung and Myers-Briggs in order to set the mood.
    Whoops.

  2. #52
    He who laughs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe they are.

    (Certainly some of us have accused members of INTPc of being ISTP or ISTJ, not INTP.)

    But it remains to be seen, and I definitely know my life experience, hands on, with people, the Ti+Si factor is pretty apparent. That is what this discussion is about, and you're just pointing out a possibility. Got some anecdotal evidence for it?
    Please read one my post in this thread again. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1226880


    Im trying to point out inconsistancies in how the types in the pattern I described in the end of that post are ordered. Plus in the pattern in the start of the post, is how I would understand the idea of being an unhealthy person and therefore be percieved/scored as a different type in Myers-Briggs terms. Which in my oppinion seems a lot more ordered. But then again typology is not supposed to be easy.

    I dont have much more time but will probably post some anecdotes if I can think of any at another time


    Edit: Okay I do have time it seems but I have no anecdotes. What kind of anecdotes do you want me to think about?

  3. #53
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    Okay so to understand the pattern of these dominant loops according to Lenore Thomson I will try and visualize them all here.


    ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

    ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

    ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

    ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

    ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

    ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

    ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

    ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

    ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

    ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

    ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

    ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

    INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

    So to make a chain from INTP to INTP that would mean this:

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) --> ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) --> ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) --> INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) --> INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    An ISTJs chain would then be:

    ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) --> ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) --> INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) --> INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) --> ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    To those that have read Lenore Thomson:

    Does she describe the above chains? If so does that mean in her terminology that if you are (mis)typing yourself as an f.ex. ISTJ that you should consider those types in the chain as one of your more probable accurate types?

  4. #54
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Im trying to point out inconsistancies in how the types in the pattern I described in the end of that post are ordered. Plus in the pattern in the start of the post, is how I would understand the idea of being an unhealthy person and therefore be percieved/scored as a different type in Myers-Briggs terms. Which in my oppinion seems a lot more ordered. But then again typology is not supposed to be easy.
    Actually, I think people OVERTHINK typology too much. I think the intuitive ("look and feel") process is much more successful at picking up vibes and getting the "right call" on people's types.

    Unfortunately, because it's intuitive, it doesn't satisfying those with linear logic who want to somehow crunch through explicable facts and somehow spit out the logical answer. IT's also not great at articulating how the outcome was reached, which can frustrate those who need a more linear, one for one, approach.

    (Faint hints of the Matrix' "The Architect vs The Oracle" conundrum here. The Architect habitually misses understanding how humans fit together and is frustrated that they are not more explicable and that his beautiful system had to contain what amounts to a flaw in his eyes in order to accommodate people. But the truth remains, we're not equations, and an equation-based approach to typing people is doomed to failure; it misses things.)

    Case in point: Your long equation-based explorations of this topic.
    Get out of the math mindset and engage people.
    Equations are not complex enough to capture the variety of human behavior.
    You are also not observing people when you work in equations.
    You cannot properly describe people unless you get your hands dirty interacting with people and doing your typing from a direct experience with them.

    When you say this: "If so does that mean in her terminology that if you are (mis)typing yourself as an f.ex. ISTJ that you should consider those types in the chain as one of your more probable accurate types?"

    ... I end up thinking the question is just misguided... because I know the people in question I was describing, and they're not ISTJs. If you look at the full range of their behavior, the Ti+Si INTP pattern fits them overall much better than an ISTJ pattern. They possess behaviors, motivations, and inclinations that are INTP, not ISTJ, but just seem to have their functions out of whack. And typically, by their personality weaknesses, this seems to be the case. The approach is holistic and immersive, not linear and distanced such as what you are trying to do.

    Edit: Okay I do have time it seems but I have no anecdotes. What kind of anecdotes do you want me to think about?
    Umm... well, let's see: Whether or not we can "prove" anything, some of us did actually bother to toss out examples of experiences with ISTJ's who look like INTPs and vice versa, but seem to function differently. You just came in and said basically, "How do you know that those supposed INTPs are not ISTJs, to start with?"

    That's not an irrational possibility to consider, but at the stage you left it, it's just an idea and can't go any further on its own.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #55
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.
    Yeah, when I've been in jobs that are highly routinized, those are good examples of situations where I've had to supress my Ne. It's hard to be an INTP and use Ne when you're surrounded by a bunch of STJ accountants. You say something that's a little bit off the beaten path and everyone looks at you like: "Don't you know we're doing accounting here! Why are you talking about that?" It feels very "stuffy" to the INTP - like we're just supposed to sit there like good little boys and behave ourselves, crunch numbers, and take our morning break from exactly 10:00 until exactly 10:10. Every time you try to use some Ne to interact with them, it gets snuffed out. So, you just learn to put Ne in your back pocket and use it on the weekends.

    You're right - it does become very hard and stressful when it has to be done for long periods of time - because that is our primary way of "extroverting". Without it, you start to feel like a caged animal. Try telling an ENTP, for example, that he can't have any ideas. He just has to focus on 1 thing for months. Ne isn't down with that.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #56
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    I dont think that what I have done in my posts have anything to do with "math". It just seemed that a lot of people misunderstand the idea behind this, so there I expanded on it.

    Plus Im open to this idea, now that Ive thought it over, with focus on my own pattern.

    I think what tricked me was a thing that prplchknz said one time on ventrilo that "noone wants to look like an ISTJ" and I am SO not like an ISTJ irl. Thats my fault I will give you that. But in ventrilo I have seen others that type themselves INTP exhibit what I would call behavior that might suggest other types, like ISTP or ISTJ.

    But I still stand by the idea that if you think you exhibit the Ti-Si loop then maybe you should look into other types than INTP. You might be ISFJor just exhibit a twisted kind of Te that would mean you are ISTJ.

    I might exhibit these traits when stressed, but I honestly feel I have enough Ne to not appear that way in real life. I think I appear more like an ISTP (Se appearing as Si in me) or INFP (Fi appearing as Fe in me) than ISTJ. Plus the whole fan boy stuff, what about INFPs and other introverted types? We all do look a like in some ways and I would say I look more like an INFP/INTJ than an I do ISTJ. But apparently all introverted types looks like an ISTJ in your thinking and thats fine. I just find it to be different.

    PS: You so wanted to tell me how much I seemed like an ISTJ making those lists right?

  7. #57

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    I've been caught in the tertiary temptation Ti-Si loop any times.

    My Ne really doesn't have much of an arena to shine or show its usefulness these days. That worries me a lot. I seem to rely on Te now for extroverted activity (at work, where most of my extroversion happens), and my Te is abysmal.

    So yeah, I could come off as an unhealthy ISTJ.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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