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  1. #41
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Actually, I think they sometimes get mistaken for INTJs. The Ti-Si loop can create something of an fixation with trying to solve one particular problem. Andrew Wiles, the man who solved Fermat's last theorem, strikes me as one such person. He spent close to 10 years creating this one huge, proof. A work of genius, no doubt, but kind of a work of obsession at the same time. An INTJs projects tend to have stronger connections to the real world.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Yeah, the same functions are there with ISFJ. But in terms of appearance, I think that a Ti-Si INTP is going to seem (with their boring, pedantic, and strictly logical demeanor) more like an ISTJ than an ISFJ. Have you had experience with an ISFJ-seeming INTP, though? Or is your comment purely hypothetical? I imagine the latter is the case, since you used the term "probably," but I thought I'd ask to be sure.

    My experience has been the "failed ISTJ" for Ti+Si INTPs. That's exactly right, the INTP's T gets exuded as T and perceived along the same type of T as ISTJ.

    Where I see it most is with the males: there's a sizeable group of ISTJ males who resemble cliche INTP geek pattern... they're into comic books, Star Trek, scifi movies and TV shows, etc. Sort of the "fanboy" mentality. Both types have a penchant for collecting and classifying things, you just might seem more physical organization structure from the ISTJ but not always; the ISTJ is more about the practical org, the INTP more about the inherent org / taxonomy, but sometimes it is hard to distinguish the two on that cursory level. Especially if the INTP doesn't show much N and relies on Si, he's going to even more seem to be a laid-back ISTJ.

    Theoretically INTPs share functions with ISFJs, but their function is still the inferior and their primary the THinking function, so I think at least earlier in life they're far more likely to resemble the ISTJ, not the ISFJ. However, socialized INTPs or less "T" style INTPs will be more likely to mirror ISFJ to whatever degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Actually, I think they sometimes get mistaken for INTJs. The Ti-Si loop can create something of an fixation with trying to solve one particular problem. Andrew Wiles, the man who solved Fermat's last theorem, strikes me as one such person. He spent close to 10 years creating this one huge, proof. A work of genius, no doubt, but kind of a work of obsession at the same time. An INTJs projects tend to have stronger connections to the real world.
    Yes. The more fixation an INTP shows, the more likely the INTJ read. But there has to be a fixation, which emulates J. Any time I see an INTP get read as INTJ (or cause confusion), it's because the INTP seems to be obsessively rational and inflexible (there are a few on INTPc who fit this standard).

    Quote Originally Posted by Robopop View Post
    This does bring up the interesting idea that certain combinations of functions(say SeTi ESTP) can look like another function(Te). ENTJs and ESTPs share somethings in common, like the take charge interaction style, same with INTJs and ISTPs,chart the course.
    That's why "take charge" styles developed -- the types do have similarities in how they present, or at least their typical roles within a group. So it helps to be able to distinguish them, or (contrastingly) know what types look like what other types and so know what they're NOT like.

    Most E's and I's don't really look much like each other, since energy is directed in completely opposite directions. Their take charge styles tend to differ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I agree. It's not "unhealthy", it's actually healthier to develop your lower functions. An INTP that can easily temporarily look like an ISFJ is major development.
    Well, it depends on how mature the use of the non-primary functions is. Often we start out by just emulating the worst qualities of our inferior without utilizing the best features.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah. If you take Ne out of the equation (meaning the INTP is suppressing it for some reason), the 2 types become pretty similar. When Ne is thrown back into the mix, however, the 2 types are VERY different. Ne changes the whole equation because it's crazy like that.
    Cray-zee???? You think eet is CRAY-ZEEE?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #43
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Where I see it most is with the males: there's a sizeable group of ISTJ males who resemble cliche INTP geek pattern... they're into comic books, Star Trek, scifi movies and TV shows, etc. Sort of the "fanboy" mentality. Both types have a penchant for collecting and classifying things, you just might seem more physical organization structure from the ISTJ but not always; the ISTJ is more about the practical org, the INTP more about the inherent org / taxonomy, but sometimes it is hard to distinguish the two on that cursory level. Especially if the INTP doesn't show much N and relies on Si, he's going to even more seem to be a laid-back ISTJ.
    I've experienced similar... as an NTP, my close ISTJ friend and I appear similar on the surface to many other people who meet us together. We were even fooled ourselves for quite a while, thinking that because we shared interests in the same "geeky" stuff, we had more in common than we thought. Especially as he's one of these ISTJ's who defines himself in opposition to authority and dresses like a hippie, which gives him a far more laid-back appearance on the surface than is true in reality. It took quite a while for the truth to come out about how COMPLETELY different our approaches to those interests are, and our motives for pursuing them, what we get out of them, the parts we like and dislike and all that.
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  4. #44
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    I would speculate that Myers-Briggs also implies we go there in stressed periods, but only if our auxiliary function lacks developement.
    I think it happens regardless as to strong auxiliary - just maybe not as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I'm going with the bolded part. "Superficial social contexts" actually fits better than what I said earlier about being "uncomfortable". In most social contexts, I know that people probably won't relate to my whacky Ne. So, I keep it under wraps a bit. Sure, I throw out some witty, humorous quips here and there if I see an opportunity, but with most people I have trouble connecting with them via Ne. So, I just come off as this quiet, respectful, reserved guy who stays in the background and seems very structured and responsible, possibly even "square".

    So, I don't always have to be "uncomfortable" or "unhealthy" to supress my Ne. If I'm around a group of STJ's and I start throwing out hypotheticals and theories, they're just going to look at me like: It's just not going to work in that situation. So, I supress it and just take the shape of an ISTJ-type

    It's just a matter of who I'm hanging out with.
    I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.

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  5. #45
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    I've experienced similar... as an NTP, my close ISTJ friend and I appear similar on the surface to many other people who meet us together. We were even fooled ourselves for quite a while, thinking that because we shared interests in the same "geeky" stuff, we had more in common than we thought. Especially as he's one of these ISTJ's who defines himself in opposition to authority and dresses like a hippie, which gives him a far more laid-back appearance on the surface than is true in reality. It took quite a while for the truth to come out about how COMPLETELY different our approaches to those interests are, and our motives for pursuing them, what we get out of them, the parts we like and dislike and all that.
    I can nearly completly second that. I myself have a long time friend, I'ld call ISTJ and tho we are fundamentally different there's some connection we share an intrest into the other that is neither of sexual origin nor really of a worldly origin. Because there's like nothing we could gain from each other, we both have fundamentally different intrests in life, but nevertheless this bond holds.

    He's a student of economics and I am a student of engineering and we both find the other field totally boring. He has no real intention to specualte about how things might work, but he has a fundamental want for precision. Though he sucks at physics, if you once got him started to talk about for example the operation of an electrical breaking assistant in a car, he will be not intrested in the whole thing and only talk bad things about it or make fun out of it, until he hears about a thing he doesnt know yet. And then he will start trieing to remember how a thing was again, in this example the one thing he was intrested in, was to think about how the centrifugal force, if a car goes through a curve is applied to the tires.

    That particular thing he didnt know and it made him think for the whole evening what the things again were he learnt about that some years ago in class, eventually leading to him speculating a tiny bit about how it could work and eventually leading to him remembering some things from school, he was sure about and he told me about with great self-convience ( tho it was wrong in the end ).

    To get him to this point of speculation is like winning the jackpot. Normally he just doesnt talk about things he doesnt know and he doesnt care to get em to know if they dont intrest him. Only once in a while you get him to do what I'm doing on a daily basis, I speculate about a thing of which I dont know how it works and when I have reached an end point, I look the thing up to see how close I got. But I have no reservations to shout out my momentary ideas changing on a minute basis, a thing an intp prolly wont do, until he isnt convinced.

    My ISTJ friend is a steady and reliable guy, he meets with a circle of friends I am part of every thursday and goes out to have a drink. Tho we follow a clear routine thats always the same, every thursday, I like it, cause it gives s0ome structure to my own life. Nevertheless I recently regulary started to bombard our little place of refugee with all sorts of arguements, mainly steming from their wish to gamble for money like every night ( and i dont have so much money ). Since I live together with my girlfriend, I watch my money more closely + my health, which means I dont drink so much no more, nor go out with em regulary no more every thursday.

    This attitude of mine has led to the fact that I became quite unwanted in their gathering, I am a bit sad about it, it's one of these times again, when I changed but not my environment together with me.

    There was a time my ISTJ friend called me the one real friend and reliable friend he had left. I think that changed since I am hanging out more with my girlfriend than him, he probably would call it "entropies priorieties have changed". He can be very military in his demands and got that all or nothing attitude, I tho like too but I dont need to adhere to in every topic.

    I hope that one day, when he decides to get his first job and to move out of his parents home, he and me will get closer friends again, but I fear that my out of control entrepeneurial spirit to conquer the world and his sense for structure, reliverance and security wont be compatible for quite some time.
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  6. #46
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.
    yeah, I excluded women from my comments because:
    (1) I know only a few ISTJ women and no INTP women IRL, so I haven't been able to observe directly.
    (2) The ISTJ women seem to still be more socially functional/aligning, rather than into the nostalgic/niche hobbies like the ISTJ men are. I see them use their J tendencies more in the workplace and in how they structure their living space/schedules.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  7. #47
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    What's up with the tendency to describe people as products of their "functions"? Can you give me some exact data on what you mean? Otherwise I'll explain the OP as a cognitive bias.
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  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    What's up with the tendency to describe people as products of their "functions"? Can you give me some exact data on what you mean? Otherwise I'll explain the OP as a cognitive bias.
    Please.

    It's pretty clear that "functional theory vaildity" is an assumption of the OP -- the facet we've chosen to discuss this in. You can't prove assumptions, you just state them up front so everyone recognizes the framework bounding the discussion.

    We could have easily picked a different assumption... and if you would like to do so, then start a new thread or just reframe it with a new assumption and then describe your idea.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
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    I honestly think you put too much focus on something that it seems the theory is not pointing to that this is experienced in healthy INTPs.

    When we talk shadow functions in Myers-Briggs terminology its something that only exhibit in either stressed moment of your life or because your personality is not developed correctly therefore do appear to be something one is not. So basically all you talk about is people that think they are INTP but really are not they are of a different type.

    If you find INTPs talking about how much they think they really look like ISTJs, then maybe they are just that (ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)).
    Last edited by slowriot; 07-01-2010 at 10:59 AM. Reason: edited by an observation by our ISTJ raz

  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    If you find INTPs talking about how much they think they really look like ISTJs, then maybe they are just that (ISTJ (Si Te Ni Fe)).
    Maybe they are.

    (Certainly some of us have accused members of INTPc of being ISTP or ISTJ, not INTP.)

    But it remains to be seen, and I definitely know my life experience, hands on, with people, the Ti+Si factor is pretty apparent. That is what this discussion is about, and you're just pointing out a possibility. Got some anecdotal evidence for it?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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