[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Ti-Si INTP comes off as ISTJ?

[Andy]

Actually, I think they sometimes get mistaken for INTJs. The Ti-Si loop can create something of an fixation with trying to solve one particular problem. Andrew Wiles, the man who solved Fermat's last theorem, strikes me as one such person. He spent close to 10 years creating this one huge, proof. A work of genius, no doubt, but kind of a work of obsession at the same time. An INTJs projects tend to have stronger connections to the real world.

 

[Totenkindly]

Yeah, the same functions are there with ISFJ. But in terms of appearance, I think that a Ti-Si INTP is going to seem (with their boring, pedantic, and strictly logical demeanor) more like an ISTJ than an ISFJ. Have you had experience with an ISFJ-seeming INTP, though? Or is your comment purely hypothetical? I imagine the latter is the case, since you used the term "probably," but I thought I'd ask to be sure.

My experience has been the "failed ISTJ" for Ti+Si INTPs. That's exactly right, the INTP's T gets exuded as T and perceived along the same type of T as ISTJ.

Where I see it most is with the males: there's a sizeable group of ISTJ males who resemble cliche INTP geek pattern... they're into comic books, Star Trek, scifi movies and TV shows, etc. Sort of the "fanboy" mentality. Both types have a penchant for collecting and classifying things, you just might seem more physical organization structure from the ISTJ but not always; the ISTJ is more about the practical org, the INTP more about the inherent org / taxonomy, but sometimes it is hard to distinguish the two on that cursory level. Especially if the INTP doesn't show much N and relies on Si, he's going to even more seem to be a laid-back ISTJ.

Theoretically INTPs share functions with ISFJs, but their function is still the inferior and their primary the THinking function, so I think at least earlier in life they're far more likely to resemble the ISTJ, not the ISFJ. However, socialized INTPs or less "T" style INTPs will be more likely to mirror ISFJ to whatever degree.

Actually, I think they sometimes get mistaken for INTJs. The Ti-Si loop can create something of an fixation with trying to solve one particular problem. Andrew Wiles, the man who solved Fermat's last theorem, strikes me as one such person. He spent close to 10 years creating this one huge, proof. A work of genius, no doubt, but kind of a work of obsession at the same time. An INTJs projects tend to have stronger connections to the real world.

Yes. The more fixation an INTP shows, the more likely the INTJ read. But there has to be a fixation, which emulates J. Any time I see an INTP get read as INTJ (or cause confusion), it's because the INTP seems to be obsessively rational and inflexible (there are a few on INTPc who fit this standard).

This does bring up the interesting idea that certain combinations of functions(say SeTi ESTP) can look like another function(Te). ENTJs and ESTPs share somethings in common, like the take charge interaction style, same with INTJs and ISTPs,chart the course.

That's why "take charge" styles developed -- the types do have similarities in how they present, or at least their typical roles within a group. So it helps to be able to distinguish them, or (contrastingly) know what types look like what other types and so know what they're NOT like.

Most E's and I's don't really look much like each other, since energy is directed in completely opposite directions. Their take charge styles tend to differ.

I agree. It's not "unhealthy", it's actually healthier to develop your lower functions. An INTP that can easily temporarily look like an ISFJ is major development.

Well, it depends on how mature the use of the non-primary functions is. Often we start out by just emulating the worst qualities of our inferior without utilizing the best features.

Yeah. If you take Ne out of the equation (meaning the INTP is suppressing it for some reason), the 2 types become pretty similar. When Ne is thrown back into the mix, however, the 2 types are VERY different. Ne changes the whole equation because it's crazy like that.

Cray-zee???? You think eet is CRAY-ZEEE?

 

[proximo]

Where I see it most is with the males: there's a sizeable group of ISTJ males who resemble cliche INTP geek pattern... they're into comic books, Star Trek, scifi movies and TV shows, etc. Sort of the "fanboy" mentality. Both types have a penchant for collecting and classifying things, you just might seem more physical organization structure from the ISTJ but not always; the ISTJ is more about the practical org, the INTP more about the inherent org / taxonomy, but sometimes it is hard to distinguish the two on that cursory level. Especially if the INTP doesn't show much N and relies on Si, he's going to even more seem to be a laid-back ISTJ.

I've experienced similar... as an NTP, my close ISTJ friend and I appear similar on the surface to many other people who meet us together. We were even fooled ourselves for quite a while, thinking that because we shared interests in the same "geeky" stuff, we had more in common than we thought. Especially as he's one of these ISTJ's who defines himself in opposition to authority and dresses like a hippie, which gives him a far more laid-back appearance on the surface than is true in reality. It took quite a while for the truth to come out about how COMPLETELY different our approaches to those interests are, and our motives for pursuing them, what we get out of them, the parts we like and dislike and all that.

 

[highlander]

I would speculate that Myers-Briggs also implies we go there in stressed periods, but only if our auxiliary function lacks developement.

I think it happens regardless as to strong auxiliary - just maybe not as much.

I'm going with the bolded part. "Superficial social contexts" actually fits better than what I said earlier about being "uncomfortable". In most social contexts, I know that people probably won't relate to my whacky Ne. So, I keep it under wraps a bit. Sure, I throw out some witty, humorous quips here and there if I see an opportunity, but with most people I have trouble connecting with them via Ne. So, I just come off as this quiet, respectful, reserved guy who stays in the background and seems very structured and responsible, possibly even "square".

So, I don't always have to be "uncomfortable" or "unhealthy" to supress my Ne. If I'm around a group of STJ's and I start throwing out hypotheticals and theories, they're just going to look at me like: It's just not going to work in that situation. So, I supress it and just take the shape of an ISTJ-type

It's just a matter of who I'm hanging out with.

I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.

 

[entropie]

I've experienced similar... as an NTP, my close ISTJ friend and I appear similar on the surface to many other people who meet us together. We were even fooled ourselves for quite a while, thinking that because we shared interests in the same "geeky" stuff, we had more in common than we thought. Especially as he's one of these ISTJ's who defines himself in opposition to authority and dresses like a hippie, which gives him a far more laid-back appearance on the surface than is true in reality. It took quite a while for the truth to come out about how COMPLETELY different our approaches to those interests are, and our motives for pursuing them, what we get out of them, the parts we like and dislike and all that.

I can nearly completly second that. I myself have a long time friend, I'ld call ISTJ and tho we are fundamentally different there's some connection we share an intrest into the other that is neither of sexual origin nor really of a worldly origin. Because there's like nothing we could gain from each other, we both have fundamentally different intrests in life, but nevertheless this bond holds.

He's a student of economics and I am a student of engineering and we both find the other field totally boring. He has no real intention to specualte about how things might work, but he has a fundamental want for precision. Though he sucks at physics, if you once got him started to talk about for example the operation of an electrical breaking assistant in a car, he will be not intrested in the whole thing and only talk bad things about it or make fun out of it, until he hears about a thing he doesnt know yet. And then he will start trieing to remember how a thing was again, in this example the one thing he was intrested in, was to think about how the centrifugal force, if a car goes through a curve is applied to the tires.

That particular thing he didnt know and it made him think for the whole evening what the things again were he learnt about that some years ago in class, eventually leading to him speculating a tiny bit about how it could work and eventually leading to him remembering some things from school, he was sure about and he told me about with great self-convience ( tho it was wrong in the end ).

To get him to this point of speculation is like winning the jackpot. Normally he just doesnt talk about things he doesnt know and he doesnt care to get em to know if they dont intrest him. Only once in a while you get him to do what I'm doing on a daily basis, I speculate about a thing of which I dont know how it works and when I have reached an end point, I look the thing up to see how close I got. But I have no reservations to shout out my momentary ideas changing on a minute basis, a thing an intp prolly wont do, until he isnt convinced.

My ISTJ friend is a steady and reliable guy, he meets with a circle of friends I am part of every thursday and goes out to have a drink. Tho we follow a clear routine thats always the same, every thursday, I like it, cause it gives s0ome structure to my own life. Nevertheless I recently regulary started to bombard our little place of refugee with all sorts of arguements, mainly steming from their wish to gamble for money like every night ( and i dont have so much money ). Since I live together with my girlfriend, I watch my money more closely + my health, which means I dont drink so much no more, nor go out with em regulary no more every thursday.

This attitude of mine has led to the fact that I became quite unwanted in their gathering, I am a bit sad about it, it's one of these times again, when I changed but not my environment together with me.

There was a time my ISTJ friend called me the one real friend and reliable friend he had left. I think that changed since I am hanging out more with my girlfriend than him, he probably would call it "entropies priorieties have changed". He can be very military in his demands and got that all or nothing attitude, I tho like too but I dont need to adhere to in every topic.

I hope that one day, when he decides to get his first job and to move out of his parents home, he and me will get closer friends again, but I fear that my out of control entrepeneurial spirit to conquer the world and his sense for structure, reliverance and security wont be compatible for quite some time.

 

[Totenkindly]

I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.

yeah, I excluded women from my comments because:
(1) I know only a few ISTJ women and no INTP women IRL, so I haven't been able to observe directly.
(2) The ISTJ women seem to still be more socially functional/aligning, rather than into the nostalgic/niche hobbies like the ISTJ men are. I see them use their J tendencies more in the workplace and in how they structure their living space/schedules.

 

[Shimmy]

What's up with the tendency to describe people as products of their "functions"? Can you give me some exact data on what you mean? Otherwise I'll explain the OP as a cognitive bias.

 

[Totenkindly]

What's up with the tendency to describe people as products of their "functions"? Can you give me some exact data on what you mean? Otherwise I'll explain the OP as a cognitive bias.

Please.

It's pretty clear that "functional theory vaildity" is an assumption of the OP -- the facet we've chosen to discuss this in. You can't prove assumptions, you just state them up front so everyone recognizes the framework bounding the discussion.

We could have easily picked a different assumption... and if you would like to do so, then start a new thread or just reframe it with a new assumption and then describe your idea.

 

[slowriot]

I honestly think you put too much focus on something that it seems the theory is not pointing to that this is experienced in healthy INTPs.

When we talk shadow functions in Myers-Briggs terminology its something that only exhibit in either stressed moment of your life or because your personality is not developed correctly therefore do appear to be something one is not. So basically all you talk about is people that think they are INTP but really are not they are of a different type.

If you find INTPs talking about how much they think they really look like ISTJs, then maybe they are just that (ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)).

 

[Totenkindly]

If you find INTPs talking about how much they think they really look like ISTJs, then maybe they are just that (ISTJ (Si Te Ni Fe)).

Maybe they are.

(Certainly some of us have accused members of INTPc of being ISTP or ISTJ, not INTP.)

But it remains to be seen, and I definitely know my life experience, hands on, with people, the Ti+Si factor is pretty apparent. That is what this discussion is about, and you're just pointing out a possibility. Got some anecdotal evidence for it?

 

[Gish]

I'll just be here in the corner, pissing on the collected works of Jung and Myers-Briggs in order to set the mood.

 

[slowriot]

Maybe they are.

(Certainly some of us have accused members of INTPc of being ISTP or ISTJ, not INTP.)

But it remains to be seen, and I definitely know my life experience, hands on, with people, the Ti+Si factor is pretty apparent. That is what this discussion is about, and you're just pointing out a possibility. Got some anecdotal evidence for it?

Please read one my post in this thread again. http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nt-rationale/32582-ti-si-intp-comes-off-istj-4.html#post1226880


Im trying to point out inconsistancies in how the types in the pattern I described in the end of that post are ordered. Plus in the pattern in the start of the post, is how I would understand the idea of being an unhealthy person and therefore be percieved/scored as a different type in Myers-Briggs terms. Which in my oppinion seems a lot more ordered. But then again typology is not supposed to be easy.

I dont have much more time but will probably post some anecdotes if I can think of any at another time


Edit: Okay I do have time it seems but I have no anecdotes. What kind of anecdotes do you want me to think about?

 

[slowriot]

Okay so to understand the pattern of these dominant loops according to Lenore Thomson I will try and visualize them all here.


ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

So to make a chain from INTP to INTP that would mean this:

INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) --> ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) --> ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) --> INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) --> INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

An ISTJs chain would then be:

ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) --> ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) --> INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) --> INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) --> ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

To those that have read Lenore Thomson:

Does she describe the above chains? If so does that mean in her terminology that if you are (mis)typing yourself as an f.ex. ISTJ that you should consider those types in the chain as one of your more probable accurate types?

 

[Totenkindly]

Im trying to point out inconsistancies in how the types in the pattern I described in the end of that post are ordered. Plus in the pattern in the start of the post, is how I would understand the idea of being an unhealthy person and therefore be percieved/scored as a different type in Myers-Briggs terms. Which in my oppinion seems a lot more ordered. But then again typology is not supposed to be easy.

Actually, I think people OVERTHINK typology too much. I think the intuitive ("look and feel") process is much more successful at picking up vibes and getting the "right call" on people's types.

Unfortunately, because it's intuitive, it doesn't satisfying those with linear logic who want to somehow crunch through explicable facts and somehow spit out the logical answer. IT's also not great at articulating how the outcome was reached, which can frustrate those who need a more linear, one for one, approach.

(Faint hints of the Matrix' "The Architect vs The Oracle" conundrum here. The Architect habitually misses understanding how humans fit together and is frustrated that they are not more explicable and that his beautiful system had to contain what amounts to a flaw in his eyes in order to accommodate people. But the truth remains, we're not equations, and an equation-based approach to typing people is doomed to failure; it misses things.)

Case in point: Your long equation-based explorations of this topic.
Get out of the math mindset and engage people.
Equations are not complex enough to capture the variety of human behavior.
You are also not observing people when you work in equations.
You cannot properly describe people unless you get your hands dirty interacting with people and doing your typing from a direct experience with them.

When you say this: "If so does that mean in her terminology that if you are (mis)typing yourself as an f.ex. ISTJ that you should consider those types in the chain as one of your more probable accurate types?"

... I end up thinking the question is just misguided... because I know the people in question I was describing, and they're not ISTJs. If you look at the full range of their behavior, the Ti+Si INTP pattern fits them overall much better than an ISTJ pattern. They possess behaviors, motivations, and inclinations that are INTP, not ISTJ, but just seem to have their functions out of whack. And typically, by their personality weaknesses, this seems to be the case. The approach is holistic and immersive, not linear and distanced such as what you are trying to do.

Edit: Okay I do have time it seems but I have no anecdotes. What kind of anecdotes do you want me to think about?

Umm... well, let's see: Whether or not we can "prove" anything, some of us did actually bother to toss out examples of experiences with ISTJ's who look like INTPs and vice versa, but seem to function differently. You just came in and said basically, "How do you know that those supposed INTPs are not ISTJs, to start with?"

That's not an irrational possibility to consider, but at the stage you left it, it's just an idea and can't go any further on its own.

 

[INTPness]

I've known a couple of INTP women who wore an ISTJ persona - for extended periods of time because of work pressures, experience working for ISTJ supervisors, etc. It was to the level that I actually thought they were ISTJ. Not sure this is a loop exactly - but it certainly was a mask they put on to the outside world. I imagine it was hard/stressful for them.

Yeah, when I've been in jobs that are highly routinized, those are good examples of situations where I've had to supress my Ne. It's hard to be an INTP and use Ne when you're surrounded by a bunch of STJ accountants. You say something that's a little bit off the beaten path and everyone looks at you like: "Don't you know we're doing accounting here! Why are you talking about that?" It feels very "stuffy" to the INTP - like we're just supposed to sit there like good little boys and behave ourselves, crunch numbers, and take our morning break from exactly 10:00 until exactly 10:10. Every time you try to use some Ne to interact with them, it gets snuffed out. So, you just learn to put Ne in your back pocket and use it on the weekends.

You're right - it does become very hard and stressful when it has to be done for long periods of time - because that is our primary way of "extroverting". Without it, you start to feel like a caged animal. Try telling an ENTP, for example, that he can't have any ideas. He just has to focus on 1 thing for months. Ne isn't down with that.

 

[slowriot]

I dont think that what I have done in my posts have anything to do with "math". It just seemed that a lot of people misunderstand the idea behind this, so there I expanded on it.

Plus Im open to this idea, now that Ive thought it over, with focus on my own pattern.

I think what tricked me was a thing that prplchknz said one time on ventrilo that "noone wants to look like an ISTJ" and I am SO not like an ISTJ irl. Thats my fault I will give you that. But in ventrilo I have seen others that type themselves INTP exhibit what I would call behavior that might suggest other types, like ISTP or ISTJ.

But I still stand by the idea that if you think you exhibit the Ti-Si loop then maybe you should look into other types than INTP. You might be ISFJor just exhibit a twisted kind of Te that would mean you are ISTJ.

I might exhibit these traits when stressed, but I honestly feel I have enough Ne to not appear that way in real life. I think I appear more like an ISTP (Se appearing as Si in me) or INFP (Fi appearing as Fe in me) than ISTJ. Plus the whole fan boy stuff, what about INFPs and other introverted types? We all do look a like in some ways and I would say I look more like an INFP/INTJ than an I do ISTJ. But apparently all introverted types looks like an ISTJ in your thinking and thats fine. I just find it to be different.

PS: You so wanted to tell me how much I seemed like an ISTJ making those lists right?

 

[ygolo]

I've been caught in the tertiary temptation Ti-Si loop any times.

My Ne really doesn't have much of an arena to shine or show its usefulness these days. That worries me a lot. I seem to rely on Te now for extroverted activity (at work, where most of my extroversion happens), and my Te is abysmal.

So yeah, I could come off as an unhealthy ISTJ.