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  1. #31
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I don't get all the "unhealthy" talk. If I'm around a bunch of SJ's who are talking about concrete facts and asking questions about a project that requires concrete answers (i.e., it's not a brainstorming session or a "think tank" type situation), then Ne doesn't play a huge role in that situation. Or if I'm small-talking with someone about the weather or the fact that their car broke down over the weekend and they had to mow their lawn in the heat (blah, blah, blah, ad finitum), it doesn't do any good for me to start hypothesizing and talking about this new, crazy idea I have for a business, etc. So, I just don't use it in those particular situations. And I come off "fairly stiff". Big deal. By coming off "stiff", the conversation ends sooner and I get to get away from the small talk sooner. That's a good thing most of the time!

    I don't see why that's unhealthy. It's a calculated decision to not use Ne when the situation doesn't call for it. Therefore, their "perception" of me is fairly ISTJ-ish, but in reality I'm not ISTJ-ish. I'm a full on INTP who, like someone said, marches to the beat of my own drum for the most part.
    I agree. It's not "unhealthy", it's actually healthier to develop your lower functions. An INTP that can easily temporarily look like an ISFJ is major development.

  2. #32
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    Plus a side question where do you get that its ISTJ and not ISTP that an unhealthy INTP exhibits? And according to this idea wouldnt that mean that an unhealthy ESTJ would exhibit intp traits? Which is weirder than I can agree on
    ISTPs and INTPs share dominant Ti and inferior Fe. Since both healthy and unhealthy INTPs make good use of Ti and relatively little use of Fe, it doesn't make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would present more like an ISTP.

    The health of the INTP has more to do with the use of Ne and Si. Specifically, an unhealthy INTP will use more Si and less Ne (according to Lenore Thompson's tertiary temptation idea.) Considering that the ISTJ has dominant Si and inferior Ne, it does make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would resemble an ISTJ more than they would an ISTP. The functions that change with the health level of the INTP are more closely related to those of the ISTJ than the ISTP.

    I don't see why using that logic would make an unhealthy ESTJ appear as an INTP. If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like, but applying the logic I've been using (tertiary of original type becomes dominant, dominant of original type switches orientation and assumes second position), they would look most similar to an ENTP, not an INTP.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like...
    I think it's difficult to think of Te to come before Ne. Te first, implies that you are changing your surrounding and then creating ideas from that. It means you are reducing the natural state of things before you come up with ideas, which may greatly alter the ideas that you make.

  4. #34
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I think it's difficult to think of Te to come before Ne. Te first, implies that you are changing your surrounding and then creating ideas from that. It means you are reducing the natural state of things before you come up with ideas, which may greatly alter the ideas that you make.
    Well I didn't say it wasn't weird. But that seems to be the logic of tertiary temptation. That's not to say that the idea is necessarily accurate.
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  5. #35
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    Just reasoning out loud I suppose.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    This does bring up the interesting idea that certain combinations of functions(say SeTi ESTP) can look like another function(Te). ENTJs and ESTPs share somethings in common, like the take charge interaction style, same with INTJs and ISTPs,chart the course.
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  7. #37
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    okay just to make it understandable as I see it this is how I would characterize the unhealthy loops/shadows what you want to call them. If anyone has info that goes against this please direct me to it.

    I will bold the functions that will be exhibited as a bad loop and compare them to the traits they may mistakenly be taken as which will be in italic. (fbecause this is time comsuming I will only make the Sensor related type)

    ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

    ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

    ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

    ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

    ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

    ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

    INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

    ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

    ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

    INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

    INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

    ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

    ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

    The idea being that for the introvert he will only develope introverted functions and therefore appear to be using the introverted tertiary function as an extroverted auxiliary function of another type. For an extrovert that only developes extroverted function and specifically tertiary extroverted function, it will appear to really look like an introverted auxiliary function of another type.

    If we where to go by the idea that unhealthy INTPs exhibit ISTJ trait we would have to turn around on the order of the first dominant function in the unhealthy type and that really do not make any sense to me. So that what one is using as an unhealthy tertiary function is actually dominant in your proposed unhealthy exhibited type.

    With focus on the intuitives here would be the idea you are proposing.

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

    ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

    ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

    ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

    ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

    INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

    Look at the INTJ and INFJ plus look at INTP and INFP they dont match!! Thats confusing. (eventhough I can see some idea in unhealthy ENFPs looking like ENTJs)
    Last edited by slowriot; 07-01-2010 at 11:10 AM. Reason: I made a mistake with the ENTJs and ENFJ in the last part.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I don't get all the "unhealthy" talk. If I'm around a bunch of SJ's who are talking about concrete facts and asking questions about a project that requires concrete answers (i.e., it's not a brainstorming session or a "think tank" type situation), then Ne doesn't play a huge role in that situation. Or if I'm small-talking with someone about the weather or the fact that their car broke down over the weekend and they had to mow their lawn in the heat (blah, blah, blah, ad finitum), it doesn't do any good for me to start hypothesizing and talking about this new, crazy idea I have for a business, etc. So, I just don't use it in those particular situations. And I come off "fairly stiff". Big deal. By coming off "stiff", the conversation ends sooner and I get to get away from the small talk sooner. That's a good thing most of the time!

    I don't see why that's unhealthy. It's a calculated decision to not use Ne when the situation doesn't call for it. Therefore, their "perception" of me is fairly ISTJ-ish, but in reality I'm not ISTJ-ish. I'm a full on INTP who, like someone said, marches to the beat of my own drum for the most part.
    Thats not what this is about you are totally not getting the point. And what you are talking about is differentiation as Jung would probably call it. And to put it in layman terms a word like adaption comes to mind (eventhough Id get beaten for saying that out loud with jungians around). We all do that, but that dont mean we take on a different personality which is what we are talking about here. Communication requires to tone down your own personality or talk in a way so that other types will understand you. That is not the same as being unhealthy and not having developed - like for INTPs - Ne for instance.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by slowriot View Post
    okay just to make it understandable as I see it this is how I would characterize the unhealthy loops/shadows what you want to call them. If anyone has info that goes against this please direct me to it.

    I will bold the functions that will be exhibited as a bad loop and compare them to the traits they may mistakenly be taken as which will be in italic. (fbecause this is time comsuming I will only make the Sensor related type)

    ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

    ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

    ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

    ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

    ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni) = ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni)

    ESFP (Se Fi Te Ni) = ESTP (Se Ti Fe Ni)

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTP (Ti Se Ni Fe)

    INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te)

    ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

    ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

    INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se)

    INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se)

    ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi)

    ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ESFJ (Fe Si Ne Ti)

    The idea being that for the introvert he will only develope introverted functions and therefore appear to be using the introverted tertiary function as an extroverted auxiliary function of another type. For an extrovert that only developes extroverted function and specifically tertiary extroverted function, it will appear to really look like an introverted auxiliary function of another type.

    If we where to go by the idea that unhealthy INTPs exhibit ESTJ trait we would have to turn around on the order of the first dominant function in the unhealthy type and that really do not make any sense to me. So that what one is using as an unhealthy tertiary function is actually dominant in your proposed unhealthy exhibited type.

    With focus on the intuitives here would be the idea you are proposing.

    INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe) = ISTJ (Si Te Fi Ne)

    INFP (Fi Ne Si Te) = ISFJ (Si Fe Ti Ne)

    ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si) = ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi)

    ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si) = ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti)

    ENTJ (Te Ni Se Fi) = ENFP (Ne Fi Te Si)

    ENFJ (Fe Ni Se Ti) = ENTP (Ne Ti Fe Si)

    INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se) = INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe)

    INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se) = INFP (Fi Ne Si Te)

    Look at the INTJ and INFJ plus look at INTP and INFP they dont match!! Thats confusing. (eventhough I can see some idea in unhealthy ENFPs looking like ENTJs)
    The second pattern is extremely confusing too me. I can't find connections between some of them. The first at least seems correct. I need to check it more later.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    ISTPs and INTPs share dominant Ti and inferior Fe. Since both healthy and unhealthy INTPs make good use of Ti and relatively little use of Fe, it doesn't make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would present more like an ISTP.

    The health of the INTP has more to do with the use of Ne and Si. Specifically, an unhealthy INTP will use more Si and less Ne (according to Lenore Thompson's tertiary temptation idea.) Considering that the ISTJ has dominant Si and inferior Ne, it does make sense to say that an unhealthy INTP would resemble an ISTJ more than they would an ISTP. The functions that change with the health level of the INTP are more closely related to those of the ISTJ than the ISTP.

    I don't see why using that logic would make an unhealthy ESTJ appear as an INTP. If the dominant and the tertiary are the functions that get over-relied upon, and the auxiliary is the one that gets pushed away, then for an ESTJ it would be a Te-Ne loop. I don't really know what that looks like, but applying the logic I've been using (tertiary of original type becomes dominant, dominant of original type switches orientation and assumes second position), they would look most similar to an ENTP, not an INTP.
    interesting but I still think its not a good thought out idea as I tried to describe in the post above. But Ill probably have to read her thoughts to understand what she is saying.

    about the estj I can see your point now I was confusing the two ideas. I blame Ne.

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