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  1. #21
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Emotion isn't the raw stuff of values?
    Where does Fi and Ti originate from? Is this inherent judgement? Innate conscience?


    And, if T detaches, how come it so often works in tandem with F?
    Just a guess...

    Te works with Fi because Te defines technical system and Fi defines intrapersonal value. Ti work with Fe because Ti defines technical value and Fe defines interpersonal system.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    This is very big to me.
    "Biological feedback/maintenance loop ". I do not understand this.
    Feelings are emotional states tied directly into body processes. Note how easily your emotions will swing around based on what your body is experiencing. Even a chemical imbalance can change what one is feeling and experiencing. Emotions thus are not abstract. It's commonly discussed how the E/I pair is tied into anxiety and/or stimulation occuring via how one's neural network is wired -- I's can't handle much stimulation because their nervous system is too sensitive, so they focus within/withdraw, and anxiety is often an emotion that accompanies that.

    Maybe this needs to tie back into the Greek concept of separating mind from body from emotion. All of that is just a way of viewing the world, but it's not necessarily true. We seem to be more holistic in nature, we can't just look at ourselves as a mind. Emotions -> Body -> Mind -> Emotions and around and around we go.

    I'm confused about the quotations. What is the definition of "make sense"? Doesn't "Feelings just are" make sense?
    Feelings will often seem to be "illogical," and if someone asks you why you are feeling a certain way, sometimes you can't tell them. All you know is that you feel a certain way. People will often blame themselves for having certain emotions, which doesn't make sense either; we feel what we feel. How we respond to our feelings is what it under our control.

    Also how is making sense related to cognitive function?
    Judging functions try to make sense of Perceptions and stimulation/input. Thus, both a T and an F are trying to "make sense" of feelings, and both might be misguided in that.


    Does emotion = feeling?
    "Feeling" in the MBTI means "values," not "emotion."
    This is a typical point of confusion with people new to the system.

    Emotions can correlate to certain values (they "validate" values) but are not equivalent to them.

    Is this the only relationship emotion has on (F/T)? Don't we judge based ultimately on emotion? Doesn't emotion define value? Is pain emotion? Why do we value survival? Shouldn't that imply that emotion is in (F/T)?
    No. If you used emotion to make all your decisions, you would not need T or F to make your decisions. Emotions are just another line of data input that T or F uses to judge things. If an emotion is strong enough, you might CHOOSE to let it control your actions... but you don't have to. People all the time choose to ignore strong emotions if they feel they need to do so; emotions are not in charge unless the will allows them to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Emotion isn't the raw stuff of values?
    Is it?

    Maybe we should define "emotion."
    Would a sense of "balance/rightness" be considered an emotion?
    If not, what would it be, then?

    And, if T detaches, how come it so often works in tandem with F?
    As opposed to not working in tandem with S or N? I'm a little lost here....
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I see.




    This is very big to me.

    "Biological feedback/maintenance loop ". I do not understand this.


    I'm confused about the quotations. What is the definition of "make sense"? Doesn't "Feelings just are" make sense?

    Also how is making sense related to cognitive function?



    Does emotion = feeling?

    Is this the only relationship emotion has on (F/T)? Don't we judge based ultimately on emotion? Doesn't emotion define value? Is pain emotion? Why do we value survival? Shouldn't that imply that emotion is in (F/T)?
    Emotions does partly equal feeling, but not in the whole. Depending on the meaning of the word feeling and the meaning of the word emotion they can overlap to a great degree. To me feeling is more concrete and more real, emotion seems to be more derived. A simple feeling can become huge emotionally.

    Values are defined by many things. Feeling can derive a value, but emotions tend to derive "values" in others. I dont want anyone to feel this way and when XYZ happens it causes this feeling so I will not do it to anyone. Its a strong value based on feeling. In regard to emotions, when I display this emotion it creates a feeling in someone else...hence can drive a value within that person based on feeling judgement. This feeling judgement is then "universalized" and applied as a whole to the world and become a value.

    Atleast my current thought of it.
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #24
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Feelings are emotional states tied directly into body processes. Note how easily your emotions will swing around based on what your body is experiencing. Even a chemical imbalance can change what one is feeling and experiencing. Emotions thus are not abstract. It's commonly discussed how the E/I pair is tied into anxiety and/or stimulation occuring via how one's neural network is wired -- I's can't handle much stimulation because their nervous system is too sensitive, so they focus within/withdraw, and anxiety is often an emotion that accompanies that.
    Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)



    Maybe this needs to tie back into the Greek concept of separating mind from body from emotion. All of that is just a way of viewing the world, but it's not necessarily true. We seem to be more holistic in nature, we can't just look at ourselves as a mind. Emotions -> Body -> Mind -> Emotions and around and around we go.
    .....

    Feelings will often seem to be "illogical," and if someone asks you why you are feeling a certain way, sometimes you can't tell them. All you know is that you feel a certain way. People will often blame themselves for having certain emotions, which doesn't make sense either; we feel what we feel. How we respond to our feelings is what it under our control.
    And F's will be good at responding to feelings than T's?



    Judging functions try to make sense of Perceptions and stimulation/input. Thus, both a T and an F are trying to "make sense" of feelings, and both might be misguided in that.
    But an F will be better? If so, why?


    "Feeling" in the MBTI means "values," not "emotion."
    This is a typical point of confusion with people new to the system.
    Feeling = values.
    Thinking = ???




    No. If you used emotion to make all your decisions, you would not need T or F to make your decisions. Emotions are just another line of data input that T or F uses to judge things. If an emotion is strong enough, you might CHOOSE to let it control your actions... but you don't have to. People all the time choose to ignore strong emotions if they feel they need to do so; emotions are not in charge unless the will allows them to be.
    So what do you use to judge things? Ti or Fi? Where did Ti or Fi come from?




    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Emotions does partly equal feeling, but not in the whole. Depending on the meaning of the word feeling and the meaning of the word emotion they can overlap to a great degree. To me feeling is more concrete and more real, emotion seems to be more derived. A simple feeling can become huge emotionally.
    I see.

    Values are defined by many things. Feeling can derive a value, but emotions tend to derive "values" in others.
    SO:

    Values
    -Emotions
    --Feelings ?

    I dont want anyone to feel this way and when XYZ happens it causes this feeling so I will not do it to anyone. Its a strong value based on feeling. In regard to emotions, when I display this emotion it creates a feeling in someone else...hence can drive a value within that person based on feeling judgement. This feeling judgement is then "universalized" and applied as a whole to the world and become a value.

    Atleast my current thought of it.
    I think I understand it now.

    ---Feeling Judgements rely on values.

    Values rely on certain "feelings" and/or experiences.

    Emotion is a feeling and/or experience.

    There are many "values"(which are based on feelings(which could be emotion)).

    Values conflict. "I am tired vs. I have to do my work." The feeling of fatigue versus the feeling of success (or accomplishment).

    ----Thinking Judgements rely on logic.

    Logic relies on correction.



    -----------

    So when we ask ourselves what we value, do we go to Feeling Functions?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)





    .....


    And F's will be good at responding to feelings than T's?




    But an F will be better? If so, why?




    Feeling = values.
    Thinking = ???






    So what do you use to judge things? Ti or Fi? Where did Ti or Fi come from?





    I see.


    SO:

    Values
    -Emotions
    --Feelings ?



    I think I understand it now.

    ---Feeling Judgements rely on values.

    Values rely on certain "feelings" and/or experiences.

    Emotion is a feeling and/or experience.

    There are many "values"(which are based on feelings(which could be emotion)).

    Values conflict. "I am tired vs. I have to do my work." The feeling of fatigue versus the feeling of success (or accomplishment).

    ----Thinking Judgements rely on logic.

    Logic relies on correction.



    -----------

    So when we ask ourselves what we value, do we go to Feeling Functions?
    I dont generally ask myself what I value. I struggle with what I value. I think that Fe values what Fe does and it values that in others. But Fe doesnt seem to value things...it seems to value actions, attempts, effort, etc. and if you try to make that into concrete things or even concepts it becomes very context based, very dynamic and is no longer consistant and easily defined.

    Feelings - emotional states tied directly into body process. (Sensation?)
    Heart attack...Butterflies...Headaches...Chest pain from hurt...the list can go on. If you become sensitive to sensations or worry about it could cause a sensation/feeling loop.
    Im out, its been fun

  6. #26
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I think my inferior Fe (in tandem with other functions, of course) only functions to make me aware of social dynamics while rendering me incapable of acting on this awareness.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #27
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'd say interpersonal.
    Cognitive Functions are intuitive processes, correct?

    So Fe is intuitive understanding?

    What function do you use when you "think about social dynamics"? Doesn't that proceed to Ti?
    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Fe for younger INTPs will most likely exhibit itself negatively in the majority of situations. This means that they can:


    • Be hypersensitive to the social and emotional demands of the people around them.
    • Feel "under attack" by those demands.
    • Be oblivious to those demands.
    • Be unsure of how to interpret and incorporate those demands into their Ti worldview. They'll label certain overtures as "shallow and pointless" or when trying to help another, offer some sort of universal, impersonal "truth" and then be frustrated that it wasn't what that person was looking for.


    If you figure it out, let me know, because I still suck balls.
    Can't you simply Ti this negativity? Rationalize it?

  8. #28
    Member Lucky_Rabbit's Avatar
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    I dont understand what the hell ur talking about
    love is boring without infidelity. thanks to an unknown visitor i spelt infidelity correctly now

  9. #29
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Cognitive Functions are intuitive processes, correct?

    So Fe is intuitive understanding?

    What function do you use when you "think about social dynamics"? Doesn't that proceed to Ti?


    Can't you simply Ti this negativity? Rationalize it?
    I don't know if 'proceed' is the best way to describe this, as Ti is usually an inescapable function. I would say that Ti examines whatever Fe is 'sensing' and then acts or does not act accordingly.

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    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_Rabbit View Post
    I dont understand what the hell ur talking about
    Pardon me(if the reply was to mine), it's my inaccurate wording. Please ask what needs to be clarified.


    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    I don't know if 'proceed' is the best way to describe this, as Ti is usually an inescapable function. I would say that Ti examines whatever Fe is 'sensing' and then acts or does not act accordingly.
    I see. Is Fe also an "inescapable function"? Does Fe examine Ti as well? Can't Ti judge social dynamics or must it really be Fe?

    "I know human behavior and rituals therefore, I will perform accordingly for my goals."

    Is Fe "thinking"? Is Ti also "thinking"? Does "Thinking" compose of all functions and can be divided into Information vs. Judgment?

    Is Fe and Ti thinking about judgements? or is it more instinctual and never a conscious process?

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