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  1. #61
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I didn't think it was hostile. I thought it was more of a semantics argument than anything.
    I don't think so either, but if Xander is basing a diagnosis of bravery on someone for standing up to a hostile audience it only works if the person actually believed that that was what they were doing when they did it. IOW, it's only (arguably) brave to walk through a mine field if you know it's a mine field. Does that make sense?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If you're going to say that you just want to believe this as a bare assertion, why dont I say that we shall believe in the flying spaghetti monster?
    Because WWTFSMD doesn't fit easily on a bracelet?

    I don't think that we should first believe in ideas and then ask if they are sound (meaning, ask if we should have believed them in the first place), it would be more efficient to first decide if the idea is sound before believing in it.
    From an intellectual "let's deduce the truth" POV, that makes sense: You should derive truth from what you experience/observe, not start with truth and plug things into it.

    Perhaps this is partly why conventional religion is tied so strongly to authority: You are asked to trust that other people have already done the thinking for you and provided you with the full set of truth, and the rest of your life is spent trying to understand the truth you already have.

    I don't know. It is a difficult subject because it seems to involve two entirely different methodologies... and to claim one is inherently better or more correct than the other begs the question. People can usually deal well with one and not the other, some people can mix the two together a bit.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think so either, but if Xander is basing a diagnosis of bravery on someone for standing up to a hostile audience it only works if the person actually believed that that was what they were doing when they did it. IOW, it's only (arguably) brave to walk through a mine field if you know it's a mine field. Does that make sense?
    Oh dear. Don't get me in trouble with Xander. I agree with what Xander was saying. But I also think that red misunderstood the nature of the opposition, though I could be wrong. I may not have read the posts closely enough.

  4. #64
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Oh dear. Don't get me in trouble with Xander. I agree with what Xander was saying. But I also think that red misunderstood the nature of the opposition, though I could be wrong. I may not have read the posts closely enough.
    I never really know whether I agree with Xander or not, but I'll behave myself and mosey on.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #65
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    No you cant do this rationally. Whats worse is that we don't even know what God is.

    Essentially it is perceived as some other-worldly ineffable entity. Ineffable means inscrutable by definition--or outside of our understanding, there is nothing about it that we can know.
    There is nothing we can know without some kind of revelation from this other-worldly being. These revelations form the beginnings of a religion. I don't see how the beginnings can be rationally determined whether we are referring to religion or anything else. Logic only determines the outcomes once you know the beginning.

    I don't think that we should first believe in ideas and then ask if they are sound (meaning, ask if we should have believed them in the first place), it would be more efficient to first decide if the idea is sound before believing in it.
    On the contrary, this is a common logical technique used by mathematicians: Proof by contradiction. Assume a conclusion is true and if you reach a contradiction then the opposite conclusion is true. So referring to my earlier John 7:17 statement, if a contradiction is reached then the teachings of Jesus must not come from God.

    On the other hand what if no contradiction is reached? Well, the teachings offer direction toward a wise life. Since we've already determined that the basis for religious teaching can not be determined rationally, then they must be derived from some type of other-worldly revelation. In other words if the teachings work (and lead to a wise life), then they must be based on some revelation from God.

    So there you have it. You follow the teachings of Christ and then you will know for sure whether or not they come from God.
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  6. #66
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There is nothing we can know without some kind of revelation from this other-worldly being..
    There is nothing we can know without instructions from the other-worldly being?

    Really? I need to be told how the law of gravity works by someone who asserts to be a prophet? Or I need to be told how the laws of logic work?

    I dont get it.

    Moreover, refresh on my argument in regards to why spirituality cannot be communicated.






    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    There On the contrary, this is a common logical technique used by mathematicians: Proof by contradiction. Assume a conclusion is true and if you reach a contradiction then the opposite conclusion is true. So referring to my earlier John 7:17 statement, if a contradiction is reached then the teachings of Jesus must not come from God. ..
    Such technique is also called reductio ad absurdum. This is a way to critique a notion--far from uncritically accepting it.

    In other words, if you tell me to run off a bridge, I am not going to do it

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So referring to my earlier John 7:17 statement, if a contradiction is reached then the teachings of Jesus must not come from God. ..
    But pretend that I'd do it in my reasoning. Tell you, suppose I do as you say, and here I discover that this would be the likely outcome of such an idea. Hence, because the outcome is unacceptable, your teaching isnt acceptable.





    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    On the other hand what if no contradiction is reached? Well, the teachings offer direction toward a wise life. Since we've already determined that the basis for religious teaching can not be determined rationally, then they must be derived from some type of other-worldly revelation. In other words if the teachings work (and lead to a wise life), then they must be based on some revelation from God...
    Really, if they do you good they must come from god?

    Okay, so I'll teach you five most efficient ways to cook, camp, study philosophy, play tennis. You name it. Or something even more complex like a lecture of a motivational speaker who has changed countless lives. Why dont all of those things have as much of a right to claim divinity as our much esteemed religious prophecy?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    So there you have it. You follow the teachings of Christ and then you will know for sure whether or not they come from God.
    No, I dont need to run off a bridge myself to see if it is a viable option.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think so either, but if Xander is basing a diagnosis of bravery on someone for standing up to a hostile audience it only works if the person actually believed that that was what they were doing when they did it. IOW, it's only (arguably) brave to walk through a mine field if you know it's a mine field. Does that make sense?
    I get what you're saying. I don't think Red believed he was headed for a rose parade and coronation either. He was dismissive of faith and the people who practiced it. No one criticized him for his POV.

    The thread itself, "why do NT's embrace religion," was not meant to be a pep rally for the local cathedral but basically a call to explain why we would do something seemingly against type. A supposed burden of proof for our behavior. Again, not to prove that a higher power exists. Red essentially repeated the question, taking the position that the norm or given position would be that an NT would reject religion. While my response would've been somewhat the same, including 1). not sure why rejecting religion has to be sort of the default position for NT's and 2). why or for what should I give up all that Jesus has given to me, it initially was based at answering his post, which is a view undoubtedly shared by many.

    However, instead of answering either of those points or subpoints made therein, the argument went to people taking his words out of context. He got a little personal there but I'm assuming either a post was deleted here or he went off in other places that brought out the unsportsmanlike conduct flag.

    Even though he jumped into a thread seeking answers from a position he didn't share and even though no one condemned him for having his position, he chose to leave. His being from a different country could've caused some misunderstanding, but I think it'd be a gross denial if we believed it was merely a case of semantics.

  8. #68
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    My point on bravery was not one which regarded this audience specifically as I have found not one religious person here who objects to questions yet. The point I was making is that whilst some groups of say black youths may laugh if a white guy walked up and said "what up nigger" other's may well "reorganise his religious distribution"

    Sometimes being controversial is done for effect and sometimes it's an honest opinion. I respect those who are honestly controversial as that shows bravery regardless of the audience.

    Cafe, you mayy well have a point though regarding red's expectations. However he is an NT and so may well never recognise the audiences emotion

    htb, I wasn't referring to you with the uncaring quote. However it's nice to know I'll be a rebel after I die too (At this point I'm hoping the afterlife is eternal sleep anyhow the way I feel today!)

    INTJMom, don't worry about "trouble" from me. If you are kind enough to allow me to ask questions impertinently then the least I can do is wait a while before beating you over the head

    Jennifer, referencing this "my religion is right" do you get that bit from 'Life of Brian' in your head with the guy down that hole and "Burn the non believer!!!" ?

    As for why NTs have religion and which one they have, isn't it just a question of having something to believe in and lacking anything relatively more substantial, one belief is as right as the next.

    Q. Why believe in logic?
    A. Cause it works as far as you know.

    Q. Why believe in God?
    A. Cause it works as far as you know.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #69
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Q. Why believe in logic?
    A. Cause it works as far as you know.

    Q. Why believe in God?
    A. Cause it works as far as you know.
    How wonderfully practical~ ^_^
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan26 View Post
    ...Even though he jumped into a thread seeking answers from a position he didn't share and even though no one condemned him for having his position, he chose to leave. His being from a different country could've caused some misunderstanding, but I think it'd be a gross denial if we believed it was merely a case of semantics.
    I did have a few exchanges with him right before he left. I can't discuss them here, except to say apparently his expectations for MBTIc did not fit the general expectations of the populace, and he didn't like that, so he chose to go elsewhere.

    (Which is his choice.)

    So no one here, imo, did anything "wrong" that resulted in his departure, he just had different expectations.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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