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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    I sometimes lose faith in MBTI. I cannot understand someone of the same type as myself actually believing in Christianity et al. I can understand why some "weak" types succumb but NT's especially INTJ's/INTP, surely not?
    I hope this doesn't come across sounding defensive, but what's so superior/logical/compelling/whatever you want to call it about rejecting religion? Most of the time I see people having a poorly excused hubris about their place in the universe.

    Of people who try Christianity and then turn away from it I see a lot of impatience. Maybe not realizing it but going to church with a real let it ride attitude. First time something doesn't go their way or they're left w/out an answer the who notion of there being a god becomes idiotic and they scoff at anyone sticking around for the Memorial day w/e picnic.

    There are plenty of bad churches and practices that dissuade people from growing spiritually. I get that. Plenty of people think it's just stupid not to be top dog of their own life. My perception has been that those who've rejected the notion of there being a god don't have things any better than those who have. If there's no god and people are their own master, then what's left for me or for anyone?

    I think there's an under estimation of what believers get from their walk. I've never really been trouble about how the universe came into existence. I've never had to tussle w/the duality of there being suffering in the world and if that precludes the notion of there being a god. I'm also not so sure if people who required such answers would be any more prone to seek God if they got a detailed answer in an e-mail from the customer service dept from heaven.

    As per the O.P, I did grow up in a Christian home. It was prolly more of a moral base for me. It wasn't until I was on my own in my 20's that I really sought out a relationship w/Christ. Being a Christian I've found love, purpose, opportunity, growth, and healing. I've had disappointments, made tough sacrifices and hurts. As an INTP, big picture person, I can say that nothing I've chosen in God has not presented itself as a greater good, more sound long term choice. From what's happened to help me in my life and seeing how it's helped others, it'd be ridiculous for me to dismiss it all as coincidence, illogical or being ill-informed.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan26 View Post
    I hope this doesn't come across sounding defensive, but what's so superior/logical/compelling/whatever you want to call it about rejecting religion? Most of the time I see people having a poorly excused hubris about their place in the universe.
    Are you referring to any of the posts here? I haven’t noticed anyone suggesting that Atheism is superior. Also personally I don’t reject religion, I just see absolutely no reason to have one. I don’t have any idea why we’re here or what our point is but that doesn’t mean that I want to make something up to answer unanswerable questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by spartan26 View Post
    I think there's an under estimation of what believers get from their walk
    I’m sure that believers do get a lot of comfort from their faith, but so do people who go to séances and talk to their dear departed relatives, or those that believe in Astrology, Tarot cards etc.

  3. #13
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    I don't believe in organized religion per se as it usually includes jumping through a lot of man-made hoops, but I had a personal experience with God in a vision, where He forgave me of all my sins, and accepted me. He changed my heart that day, and I've never been the same since. That was 25 years ago. I have had subsequent experiences also where He has healed me of physical ailments, and healed deep wounds in my soul.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Kristiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan26 View Post
    I hope this doesn't come across sounding defensive, but what's so superior/logical/compelling/whatever you want to call it about rejecting religion? Most of the time I see people having a poorly excused hubris about their place in the universe.

    Of people who try Christianity and then turn away from it I see a lot of impatience. Maybe not realizing it but going to church with a real let it ride attitude. First time something doesn't go their way or they're left w/out an answer the who notion of there being a god becomes idiotic and they scoff at anyone sticking around for the Memorial day w/e picnic.

    There are plenty of bad churches and practices that dissuade people from growing spiritually. I get that. Plenty of people think it's just stupid not to be top dog of their own life. My perception has been that those who've rejected the notion of there being a god don't have things any better than those who have. If there's no god and people are their own master, then what's left for me or for anyone?

    I think there's an under estimation of what believers get from their walk. I've never really been trouble about how the universe came into existence. I've never had to tussle w/the duality of there being suffering in the world and if that precludes the notion of there being a god. I'm also not so sure if people who required such answers would be any more prone to seek God if they got a detailed answer in an e-mail from the customer service dept from heaven.

    As per the O.P, I did grow up in a Christian home. It was prolly more of a moral base for me. It wasn't until I was on my own in my 20's that I really sought out a relationship w/Christ. Being a Christian I've found love, purpose, opportunity, growth, and healing. I've had disappointments, made tough sacrifices and hurts. As an INTP, big picture person, I can say that nothing I've chosen in God has not presented itself as a greater good, more sound long term choice. From what's happened to help me in my life and seeing how it's helped others, it'd be ridiculous for me to dismiss it all as coincidence, illogical or being ill-informed.
    Word. Some of the most rational, intellectual people are/were strong Christians. CS Lewis (who definitely was INTJ), GK Chesterton, George MacDonald, Scott Hahn, Peter Kreeft, John Piper, and so on.

    red13, I think people interpreted your post correlating "weak" types with religion as implying that people who ascribe to a religion are emotionally weaker and use it as a crutch. That might not be what you intended it to mean, but I can see the implication being there.

    By the way, hi everyone! i'm new around here. Looking fwd to getting to know you all!

  5. #15
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    Why we are here I see more as a purpose thing that people can create for themselves. I also don't think we need a reason to exist.

    And have fun here, Kristiana. =)
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiana View Post
    I think people interpreted your post correlating "weak" types with religion as implying that people who ascribe to a religion are emotionally weaker and use it as a crutch. That might not be what you intended it to mean, but I can see the implication being there.
    That's your interpretation, and maybe says more about you than me, although I would not necessarily disagree with the statement. Who are these people who interpreted "weak" in this way?

    I think one of the interesting aspects of a forum like this is the different attitude to religion in the US and the UK. The majority of people in the UK like religion to have a very low profile and plays little part in daily life. From my experience in the US religion is much more mainstream.

    Welcome to MBTICentral Kristiana, I notice that your profile doesn’t state where you’re from.

    p.s. Did C.S. Lewis actually take the test?
    Last edited by Bellflower; 01-01-2008 at 11:32 AM. Reason: fixed <quote> code to work

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    Sorry but I really can't believe that anyone who rationally looks at the data would ever become Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc. I can believe that social upbringing and pressure cause people to conform to their local religion, but if they really looked at the data they would surely reject it. I will however look at the two forums you suggest to see if I can get any insights.
    That's the most I could ask.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    Sorry but I really can't believe that anyone who rationally looks at the data would ever become Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc. I can believe that social upbringing and pressure cause people to conform to their local religion, but if they really looked at the data they would surely reject it.

    I will however look at the two forums you suggest to see if I can get any insights.
    Where is this data? Can I see it?

    MBTI is an indicator and there are other factors involved, for example neuroticism can really throw off a persons type.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  9. #19
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spartan26 View Post
    There are plenty of bad churches and practices that dissuade people from growing spiritually. I get that. Plenty of people think it's just stupid not to be top dog of their own life. My perception has been that those who've rejected the notion of there being a god don't have things any better than those who have.
    Perhaps we are great to the extent we have a beautiful vision we walk toward rather than to the extent we have an ugly nightmare we walk away from. Both thiest and athiest can focus on what they adamently reject, attempt to persuade others to reject it too, and argue passionately against what they find so distasteful in another view, but listen to either of them speak passionately about the beauty and magnificience of their vision, listen to them inspire and uplift, and you know in that moment that there is no persuading this person from what they believe ... and that there is no need to. Rather, now we really are listening. We want to hear more.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    That's your interpretation, and maybe says more about you than me, although I would not necessarily disagree with the statement. Who are these people who interpreted "weak" in this way?
    Quote Originally Posted by red13
    Also personally I don't reject religion, I just see absolutely no reason to have one.
    First off, I don't see how that isn't rejecting religion? That seems like a total contradiction. Like saying, "I don't reject seatbelts. I'm just not wearing one." I'm not asking you to quantify your decision, I'm just saying from a reading comprehension pov, much like your previous argument...I must be seeing something different than what you believe you're trying to say.

    moving on...
    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    Sorry but I really can't believe that anyone who rationally looks at the data would ever become Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc. I can believe that social upbringing and pressure cause people to conform to their local religion, but if they really looked at the data they would surely reject it.
    That is precisely the point of faith, to trust in a god despite not having enough empirical or quantitative data to confirm the choice or to make a faith-based decision when evidence to the contrary is present. After doing things that's prescribed to increase faith or please God and the results produce far beyond what my own rational decision could have delivered, it to me, and many other believers, becomes the rational decision to do the things pertaining to God's will.

    I was "forced" (didn't really mind but sometimes wanted to sleep) to go to church until I was in middle school. By the time I was in high school, from what I can remember, I chose to go far more often than not and would drive myself. Prolly the biggest mark it made in my life was strengthening me so I "didn't have to follow the crowd." Did that partially shape me into an INTP? Did being an INTP aid this? Who knows. But from what I can remember, that was really the bedrock point for me and Christianity at the time.

    I did see Christianity at work though in my home and in the lives of others. It wasn't a case of getting up Sundays to look good to the rest of the community. To truly follow Jesus requires the individual rely on his or her own faith and not what may've been brow beaten or spoon fed to them as children. I think some people in all faiths have a sort of "as the church body goes, I go" mentality. The distance between them and their god is so great that it would seem ineffectual, if not outright pointless to partake in. But I would say there comes a point for a person to choose religion, at least Christianity, and not go off the faith of his or her parents or environmental pressures to follow. People particularly now will just walk away.
    Quote Originally Posted by red13 View Post
    I think one of the interesting aspects of a forum like this is the different attitude to religion in the US and the UK. The majority of people in the UK like religion to have a very low profile and plays little part in daily life. From my experience in the US religion is much more mainstream.
    If church is, as you mentioned, sort of a back burner in someone's life then it prolly would make even less sense to belong or be involved. In the US, particularly in the bible belt, the activity and presence of churches can be very showy. Though prominent in visibility, whether they're living out Jesus' design could be highly debatable. (Not saying that they aren't, just saying there's room to question). They would be more likely to have kind of the legislation of morality mentality. "You're not wearing Britney pants to school..." "Don't go see the movie The Golden Compass. Those are sins!!!" Those kinds of things. Whereas in such areas you could prolly make a huge donation to your church or go out on five dates and not sleep w/your partner and people aren't going to look at you cross eyed.

    Where I am, in sunny, do-as-you-please So Cal, at best church is kinda viewed as a "whatever makes you happy," activity. If you don't attend services for five weeks in a row, no one's going to say anything. Being a church committee leader isn't going to impress anyone though neither. There's no social validation that you'd prolly otherwise get in the South. Don't get me wrong, one could actually be esteemed for living a godly life in the bible belt and it not in the bad sense. While that's far less likely to happen in LA, there is prolly more freedom for individuals to grow faith relationships and get past do's & don'ts of "practicing religion."

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