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  1. #111
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ahh, that is the most NTJ perspective I've ever heard on that. Did you hear it from one?
    Heh, no. I try to take other viewpoints into account as much as possible, but I think if it favors any type it is ENTP. ENTP's are the type most likely to try a new way of doing things. There are no established rules when trying something for the first time, so ultimately the best test is "what works".

    From my experience sometimes an idea that looks good on paper sometimes does not work well in execution and vice versa. Reality won't argue back against your ideas, but it will point out whether you've succeded or failed in your task. The ideas on paper are only good if they lead to something that works.

    Pragmatic points taken; note that I never said religion had no use in the real world. I think it probably does more good than harm, overall, and I don't support trying to outlaw it, or anything like that. It seems a little simplistic to categorize all beliefs into just two possibilities: "works" or "doesn't work." How about if two things both work but I'd like to suggest that one might work better?
    Yes, if one idea works better in a certain context then it is obviously a better idea for that context.

    Besides that, though...it bears repeating that I've got nothing against people practicing personal beliefs, just against the obvious negative effects of organized, dogmatic religion. Also we're debating theology, an entirely hypothetical field, on a forum devoted to an obscure psychological topic. I think we can afford to wander a little into "not so pertinent or useful to real life" territory here, hm?
    Oh I'm all into wandering. Just because something doesn't appear to directly apply doesn't mean it isn't useful. It just means you have to look a little more closely to see the application.

    I wouldn't call theology purely hypothetical though. While you can't directly study God, you can study the effect that different types of faith and belief have on people. And that is really the test of faith anyway, the effects. If you look into it you'll see that certain beliefs and practices have predictably posititive effects, while others have predictably negative ones.
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  2. #112
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes, of course he was. I mean how could an INTP possibly ever write something like the Pensées; despite all his earlier work in mathematics and physics.
    I can't really tell if this is sarcastic. My ISFJ comment was definitely a facetious joke, though, because I find Pascal's Wager so poorly reasoned.

    Also, I hope you don't intend to imply that all NTs who aren't convinced of "the truth" of religion are assholes.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #113
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Heh, no. I try to take other viewpoints into account as much as possible, but I think if it favors any type it is ENTP. ENTP's are the type most likely to try a new way of doing things. There are no established rules when trying something for the first time, so ultimately the best test is "what works".

    From my experience sometimes an idea that looks good on paper sometimes does not work well in execution and vice versa. Reality won't argue back against your ideas, but it will point out whether you've succeded or failed in your task. The ideas on paper are only good if they lead to something that works.



    Yes, if one idea works better in a certain context then it is obviously a better idea for that context.



    Oh I'm all into wandering. Just because something doesn't appear to directly apply doesn't mean it isn't useful. It just means you have to look a little more closely to see the application.

    I wouldn't call theology purely hypothetical though. While you can't directly study God, you can study the effect that different types of faith and belief have on people. And that is really the test of faith anyway, the effects. If you look into it you'll see that certain beliefs and practices have predictably posititive effects, while others have predictably negative ones.

    And it's my contention that not believing/basing one's life around a literal conception of God is more efficient for the task of living happily and fully than belief in such a being. Both may work in some way or another, but I believe the former to work better.

    Theology is definitely purely hypothetical; once you start studying the cultural effects on people you've wandered off into anthropology and history, primarily.

    You've kind of sidestepped my point, though, which was that calling all these extremely varied belief systems the same thing is inefficient and does not work as well as differentiating them. If it worked that well, we wouldn't have so many faux-arguments about God based on incorrect context/failure to identify him in the same sense all over the intarwebz.

    Also, even these "other methods of reasoning" that you refer to all fall within the larger umbrella of rationality. Sometimes we choose to make decisions based on preserving the feelings of others, but is this not for some greater future purpose? We are more respectful of the feelings of people from whom we want something. This is rational and in one's own self-interest, so often even seemingly irrational value systems can be taken into account and followed in order to preserve social relationships for greater rational benefit. Where does the "equally valid irrational belief" part come in?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #114
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Cause I guess there's NTs who are interested in the truth, and don't have a stick up their ass.
    Reminds of that saying: "Truth is stranger than fiction"



    plz excuse me as I readjust my stick

  5. #115
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And it's my contention that not believing/basing one's life around a literal conception of God is more efficient for the task of living happily and fully than belief in such a being. Both may work in some way or another, but I believe the former to work better.
    Well you can certainly believe what you like, but I can say that this doesn't gel with my own experience. I've tried the atheist and agnostic route, and it lead to both an less fulfilling and less productive existence than my current Christian route.
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  6. #116
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Well you can certainly believe what you like, but I can say that this doesn't gel with my own experience. I've tried the atheist and agnostic route, and it lead to both an less fulfilling and less productive existence than my current Christian route.
    im not saying you did this, but i generally am saddened when people have to turn to religion because they cant separate nihilism from atheism.... (atheism is not a world view and doesnt have to equal nihilism...you probably already know that though )

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ahh, that is the most NTJ perspective I've ever heard on that. Did you hear it from one?
    if he was NTJ he would of noticed that there are a lot of taoists, muslims, budhists who all have their own "it works for me!" 'evidence'.

    newsflash: most people have NO (well thought out) world view. of course adopting a world view of any kind is going to be superior to simply not having one (in most cases). it doesnt make that world view true however....

  7. #117
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Well you can certainly believe what you like, but I can say that this doesn't gel with my own experience. I've tried the atheist and agnostic route, and it lead to both an less fulfilling and less productive existence than my current Christian route.
    Fair enough, I'm not out to take away your happiness. I wasn't arguing that Christianity is inherently less useful than atheism for everyone. I know it was kind of a tangent, but I intended only to argue the logical integrity of Christian belief--it's still possible for an illogical belief system to provide utility and therefore possess a rational use.

    This is what I meant about discussing things that have little to no value in real life--most of my argument wasn't even commenting on the ultimate usefulness of Christianity or other religion.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #118
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    im not saying you did this, but i generally am saddened when people have to turn to religion because they cant separate nihilism from atheism.... (atheism is not a world view and doesnt have to equal nihilism...you probably already know that though )



    if he was NTJ he would of noticed that there are a lot of taoists, muslims, budhists who all have their own "it works for me!" 'evidence'.

    newsflash: most people have NO (well thought out) world view. of course adopting a world view of any kind is going to be superior to simply not having one (in most cases). it doesnt make that world view true however....
    Does it bug you when people enter debates under the guise of wanting to offer purely logical justification for a specific faith or belief system, and then cop out and end up "convincing" you that it's still worth following to them, even though it's irrational? As if you were even arguing that?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #119
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Well you can certainly believe what you like...
    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRJzzofsrbw"]I believe in a thing called love[/YOUTUBE]

  10. #120
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    if he was NTJ he would of noticed that there are a lot of taoists, muslims, budhists who all have their own "it works for me!" 'evidence'.
    I've noticed this. I don't necessarily think that all of those world views are mutually exclusive though.

    newsflash: most people have NO (well thought out) world view. of course adopting a world view of any kind is going to be superior to simply not having one (in most cases). it doesnt make that world view true however....
    The difference is that a lot of world views don't have obvious practical impact. For example conservatives or liberals might have highly elaborate political world views, but I haven't yet seen much benefit from these world views upon the people that hold them. The world views seem to benefit the politcal parties, but I don't see how they benefit individuals who aren't running for office.

    I do know that "faith" is practical, because I've seen it have a practical impact on quite a few people (myself included).

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    Fair enough, I'm not out to take away your happiness. I wasn't arguing that Christianity is inherently less useful than atheism for everyone. I know it was kind of a tangent, but I intended only to argue the logical integrity of Christian belief--it's still possible for an illogical belief system to provide utility and therefore possess a rational use.
    (Referring to the bolded part) I guess it depends on what you mean by rational or illogical. For me rational is not what is important. What is important is if something is true. There are a lot of logical belief systems that are based on false ideas. (I'm not necessarily talking religion here, just ideas in general.) For example the idea of phlogiston was logical, but it wasn't true.

    I don't believe that something can be useful and based entirely on false ideas. Even if some of the details are wrong, the usefulness comes from the details which are true. Something which is useful must at the very least be partially true. For example which catapult would be more effective, one based on the idea that a projectile travels in a line, or one that assumes a projectile travels in a parabola?
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