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  1. #1
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Default Are ENTPs the ultimate idealists?

    It's a paradoxical possibility, and I would especially like to ask my fellow ENTPs.

    ENTPs are often described as "cold, unfeeling cynical bastards", yet very pleasing and funny to interact with. Just like Whatever once described: "warm on the outside, but cold on the inside".

    It's true that on the surface I have no ethics whatsoever. "True morality makes fun of morality", Pascal once said. I can lie, cheat on purpose, and feel no guilt about it. I also enjoy to provoke people somehow. I am lazy, skeptical to an extreme, manipulative and untrustworthy, yet most people seem to like me this way, and I still don't know why.

    The truth is I find this world to be entirely corrupt, and hypocrisy to be everywhere, in every relationship. Not to mention despair, pain, selfishness, greed and crass stupidity. How can you trust mankind, then?

    ---

    And yet, I'm often the first to volunteer to help people in distress. I don't know why too, I guess it's a kind of instinct. I find charity business to be insincere, yet when people in real trouble ask me to help them, and even if I find their cause to be desperate and impossible to win, I'm always here.

    So, I'm wondering the possibility that in fact, I could have extremely high ethical values, almost impossible to achieve for normal men, and that I'm considering most of my fellow-men not to be worth them. I despise people, yet I love mankind, even if it looks crass ignorant and totally irresponsible.

    Isn't it a paradoxical, bittersweet feeling? I feel optimistic and pessimistic at the same time. Charming and nice on the outside, yet completely disillusioned in the inside.

    Sometimes, it looks like hopeless idealism. Just like if my ethos -whatever it would be- would be far more demanding than the majority of people who describe themselves as Feelers...

    So, what do you think?

    ---

    Maybe it's a curious byproduct of the tertiary Fe speaking in me.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #2
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    I couldn't have typed it better myself brother. I hate them yet i can be so kind.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    I think your applying too much of your own personality to your type.

    No one is born a Cynic, cynics are made by the experiences of thier lives. Idealists however often start that way early on.

    Its my personal experience that Cynics were Idealists that were disillusioned at some point in time by the world or the people in it.


    Also your description of "idealism" isnt incompatable with cynicism. Cynicism is was originally a philosophical movement that urged people to live virtuous lives and reject the evils of the world. The reason they were pegged as such negative people is because they were so critical of the world and its corruption.

    Idealists are people who turn a blind eye to evil of the world while Cynics are people who recognize(and actively point out) it so as to better be able to combat it.

    So yeah, your not an Idealist your a Cynic. If you want a good example of a modern day Cynic think Hunter S Thompson.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

  4. #4
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    I think Ji in general results in idealism. We want the external world to fit our internal ideals, and this can come off as stubbornly persistent and naively optimistic for change.

    The idealism that the OP describes sounds like tertiary Fe seeping through, coupled with strong Ti.

  5. #5
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Some things that spring to my mind on reading the OP:

    The true meaning of cynicism: Cynicism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "In contrast to the way in which the word is used today this word actually refers to the first major assault upon so called ‘civilised values’. The original cynics were a loose community of individuals who believed that what was being propagated as ‘moral’ and ‘civilised’ by the establishment was often corrupt and self-interested. The cynics (most closely associated with Diogenes) were wandering sages who gave up material wealth to travel the land and question the very things everyone else would take for granted (often teaching in cryptic and controversial ways). The greatest misjudgement made against the cynics was that their attack of dominant moral values equalled an attack upon all moral values. By looking closer it becomes clear that they loved morality so much they were compelled to attack society's crude and oppressive versions of it, often suffering greatly as a result. "

    Which puts me in mind of something Lao Tzu said:

    "Failing Tao, man resorts to Virtue
    Failing Virtue, man resorts to humanity
    Failing humanity, man resorts to morality
    Failing morality, man resorts to ceremony.
    Ceremony is the meresk husk of faith and loyalty
    It is the beginning of all confusion and disorder."


    I think the ENTP temperament seems to me uniquely suited to have these ideas fully internalised at a much earlier stage of life, or just to grasp them more easily... I remember reading these words for the first time with my mother in the room (ESFJ). My immediate response was "Yes!" and I was so impressed at their lucidity and perceptiveness that I read them aloud to my mother. Her response was to frown and say "Riddles!"

    Think of Peter Abelard... a natural cynic/Taoist in many ways, whether he knew it or not: Peter Abelard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  6. #6
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    I'm cynical about humanity in general too, but even though I can't stand most of society's values, I do like certain individuals. I really try not to expect too much from people and try to be accepting and understanding but people generally don't accept me. I don't really have any friends IRL and I have gotten used to being a loner.

  7. #7
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    I am lazy, skeptical to an extreme, manipulative and untrustworthy, yet most people seem to like me this way, and I still don't know why.
    That's the great ENTP question now, isn't it
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #8
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Maybe it's a curious byproduct of the tertiary Fe speaking in me
    Yeah but that's no real answer. That's fitting a 'descriptive model that doesn't explain anything' (I guess most theories could be categorized as such but that's another topic i'll try not to get into).

    The question is: does it make sense? Is the 'warm' side in you congruent with your 'cold analytical side'. And THAT to me, is a great challenge every ENTP should address in his/her (or as i say "hir") quest for growth.

    Of course some processes ('Fe') are purely 'right brained' in essence, by which i don't necessarily mean 'actually mainly processed in the right brain' but continuous rather than discreet in their outputs, making it harder for a discreet/object oriented analytical 'Ti' Approach to deconstruct them into a set of base principles and dynamics: hence the "I don't know why" part.

    yet most people seem to like me this way, and I still don't know why.
    and yet, I'm often the first to volunteer to help people in distress. I don't know why too
    The "I dont know" part is, of course, also because... (perhaps)
    Well; I'll speak a bit of my experience.
    I tend to be, to a point, oblivious of what people think of me. Which's the oddest thing when I know how easy it is for me to read people, but it's like the very nature and habits (which are highly correlated for developmental reasons, obviously) of my thought processes excludes me from the picture when it comes to analysis.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #9
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I tend to be, to a point, oblivious of what people think of me.
    Which, itself, goes quite a long way towards explaining the concentration on "pure ethics" and perhaps finding it easier to put them into practice, as you're either oblivious to, or unconcerned with, how your behaviour's judged by "standard" morals/societal expectations.

    A person who was more aware of those things would probably find it harder to go against them, more afraid of the consequences. When you don't even notice them, let alone the consequences of going against them...
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  10. #10
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Oh, I know societal and groupal responses to behavior. That's easy.
    But I could care less if there's no form of relative gain to be had or any mastery/sense of beauty (itself a gain, as i'm obviously the one setting my own standards for what is a +) inherent to the expected behavior's mechanics
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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