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  1. #11
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It's a paradoxical possibility, and I would especially like to ask my fellow ENTPs.

    ENTPs are often described as "cold, unfeeling cynical bastards", yet very pleasing and funny to interact with. Just like Whatever once described: "warm on the outside, but cold on the inside".

    It's true that on the surface I have no ethics whatsoever. "True morality makes fun of morality", Pascal once said. I can lie, cheat on purpose, and feel no guilt about it. I also enjoy to provoke people somehow. I am lazy, skeptical to an extreme, manipulative and untrustworthy, yet most people seem to like me this way, and I still don't know why.

    The truth is I find this world to be entirely corrupt, and hypocrisy to be everywhere, in every relationship. Not to mention despair, pain, selfishness, greed and crass stupidity. How can you trust mankind, then?

    ---

    And yet, I'm often the first to volunteer to help people in distress. I don't know why too, I guess it's a kind of instinct. I find charity business to be insincere, yet when people in real trouble ask me to help them, and even if I find their cause to be desperate and impossible to win, I'm always here.

    So, I'm wondering the possibility that in fact, I could have extremely high ethical values, almost impossible to achieve for normal men, and that I'm considering most of my fellow-men not to be worth them. I despise people, yet I love mankind, even if it looks crass ignorant and totally irresponsible.

    Isn't it a paradoxical, bittersweet feeling? I feel optimistic and pessimistic at the same time. Charming and nice on the outside, yet completely disillusioned in the inside.

    Sometimes, it looks like hopeless idealism. Just like if my ethos -whatever it would be- would be far more demanding than the majority of people who describe themselves as Feelers...

    So, what do you think?

    ---

    Maybe it's a curious byproduct of the tertiary Fe speaking in me.
    The physical fact that there are no closed systems in the world is the one you can use in any arguement with a physics guy, if you want to destroy the discussion.

    Knowing that, the entp system analyst nevertheless always bravely fails at understanding that for himself.

    I can sign what you said to the last letter. My gf keeps on telling me, if I go down that road of discussion that I see myself in a rather bad light. And thats what it is about in the end; other people can see you but not your motives. The whole interaction thing between humans revolves around trust, you can trust someone who is trustworthy and therefore perceive him as a nice guy, but you wont know how many corpses he has in his cellar.

    The world humans created are the 1:1 reflection of their inner souls and of whats going on in theirselves. There is no thing like total moralism or white or total anti-moralism or black; the human soul is a paradox of eternal conflicts, all what you can make up in your mind, is what will be in your mind and in the end the person you will be, is defined by the things you do.

    I personally do not think the problem you described, is a problem you have with yourself or a problem you can ever solve with yourself; I think you will need other people to be the mirrors for your own actions, to be able to define who you are through them.

    I have made a decision for myself and I will stick to it. I remember the Battlestar galactica episode in which Colonel Adama told his son: "You havent decided yet on which side you play." This was a mutual understanding to my own personality for me, cause I like to make things right for everyone, so he feels good, but I do that by adapting to their habits and needs without ever really developing a true self for myself.

    I still nowadays am in an ultimate identity crisis and I have the same Black&White feelings about morales, namely: either total white or nothing. But thats not how it works, mistakes are destined to happen and even if you have decided for one side, you will continue to make mistakes.

    I more and more get this feeling at work, regarding decisions, I like to consider decisions, think about them, talk about them with many people; but that doesnt work no more as it ones did. Sometimes you have to decide crucial things fast and sometimes the people you would need for discussion aint there. So you are obliged to make the right or wrong decision and sometimes its like a dice game on some decisions.

    I have learned for myself that if you stay in question with yourself, like: "why does everyone like me, tho I am a cold-hearted bastard", you make two mistakes: 1st everyone likes you, so you cant be a cold-hearted bastard and if you still are, why care, everyone likes you. And the 2nd, if you continue to be in doubt and in question with yourself, you'll miss that cruical step in life every p once has to make, namely to take a side. Meaning do you play for yourself in life or do you care for yourself to be healthy enough to help others. Namely to you cheat on your girlfriend or are you loyal till death.

    You maybe laugh at me for being the morale apostle, but truth is, the only one that can define your life is you yourself. The one your family will love, will be the one you project and you show them. they will never be able to look into your mind and understand your inner workings, as you do and as entps think they can do with others sometimes.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #12
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I'm not laughing entropie, I'm impressed

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I do that by adapting to their habits and needs without ever really developing a true self for myself.
    This bit's an insight into Ne/Ti mindset that's often said but, I think, overlooked by those who say they want to understand the ENTP's in their lives. It's a sort of instinctive altruism, born possibly of utter cynicism itself, paradoxically... and yet it's usually seen as quite the opposite: it's seen as "fakery" when you're apparently a "man for all seasons".

    Speaking of whom, although I don't agree with much of Thomas More's work, I can see the footprints of Ne/Ti all the way through it. Thomas More - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Curiously, I've thought that ENxP and its opposite, the ISxJ are united in one thing: look behind you at the gates of hell and it'll be those types still with you, while everyone else has flaked off on the way.

    Naturally, I'm talking about the ENTP at his/her best. Of course, nobody can be at their best all the time
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  3. #13
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    Blackmail!: *jerk jerk jerk*
    Mo(i)st ENTPs: "mmm spread your ethical ego-juices all over me. Make a mess of mess, baby" *squeezes tits together*
    Blackmail!: "iiiihhhh I'm cumming, oh yeah, ihhhhh, ah ah ah.. Did I mention I went to one of the best and most uptight high school in all of France? I'm getting myself hard again now. Tell me I'm a special boy, mommy."

  4. #14
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I don't think it's connected to Fe, nor do I think it's hopeless idealism. I feel the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I despise people, yet I love mankind, even if it looks crass ignorant and totally irresponsible.
    Burke comes to my mind:
    "The individual is foolish; the multitude, for the moment is foolish, when they act without deliberation; but the species is wise."

  5. #15
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Blackmail!: *jerk jerk jerk*
    Mo(i)st ENTPs: "mmm spread your ethical ego-juices all over me. Make me a mess, baby" *squeezes tits together*
    Blackmail!: "iiiihhhh I'm cumming, oh yeah, ihhhhh, ah ah ah.. Did I mention I went to one of the best and most uptight high school in all of France? I'm getting myself hard again now. Tell me I'm a special boy, mommy."
    Gosh, how embarrassing. I remember when I used to be like that about my elder brother... thank god I outgrew my inferiority complex, or I might still be a bitter little boy, always being naughty and rude to get some attention
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    The older entps I know actually care very much for others. They can be overly optimistic at times. But they feel strongly compelled to help society as a whole. They are kind.

    Is this defining Fe values as part of the Ti logical construct? ie The most logically consistent thing to do is to listen to Fe values...? (I do this with Fi/Te a bit)

  7. #17
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Yeah Orobas... that chimes with my experience/sense of how I've developed/direction in which I'm developing through the years...

    It's peculiar though... how that "caring for others" is, though increasingly pronounced in me, still just stubbornly NOT about attachment... it's still coming from somewhere else. So yeah, maybe it's like you say, Ti telling me the logical thing to do is help/support, etc... I care about the person less as an individual and more as part of a whole... and help out of "obedience" to principles that I care very deeply about, more than a personal sense of attachment/feeling towards the individual.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Gosh, how embarrassing. I remember when I used to be like that about my elder brother... thank god I outgrew my inferiority complex, or I might still be a bitter little boy, always being naughty and rude to get some attention
    Someone makes fun of your wanking and immediately you assign that person a complex. Nice.
    I doubt you ever outgrew your inferiority complex; you are just keeping it well fed with MBTI. It seems like the majority of topics involving ENTPs which are discussed in this subsection turn into major circle jerk events, so it's not like there's a shortage of (salty & creamy) food for your ego.

    Please, indulge my complex some more with another reply.

  9. #19
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    you make two mistakes: 1st everyone likes you, so you cant be a cold-hearted bastard and if you still are, why care, everyone likes you. And the 2nd, if you continue to be in doubt and in question with yourself, you'll miss that cruical step in life every p once has to make, namely to take a side. Meaning do you play for yourself in life or do you care for yourself to be healthy enough to help others. Namely to you cheat on your girlfriend or are you loyal till death.
    Of course, the other mistake is to forget that not everyone likes you! (see above)

    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  10. #20
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I despise people, yet I love mankind, even if it looks crass ignorant and totally irresponsible.
    Absolutely not. You've simply avoided the common mistake of composition, which claims that if the parts hold a certain property, the whole does as well. Such a claim can be false; for example: "Each brick that makes up this wall weighs 1.5kg, so the wall itself weighs 1.5kg."

    Isn't it a paradoxical, bittersweet feeling? I feel optimistic and pessimistic at the same time. Charming and nice on the outside, yet completely disillusioned in the inside.
    I relate to what you say here, but does this apply to every space of life? Take mathematics for example: I cannot apply what you've said about your optimism and disillusionment when dealing strictly with numbers or variables– or even in scientific thinking; however, the above fits seamlessly to how I react to people. I think the problem here has to do more with how illogical we see people as, coupled with the realization that we ourselves are people, leading us to the conclusion that we are illogical. Yikes!
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
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