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  1. #51
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I can't stand the poetry equivalent of fluff. Either be an incredible poet, or keep it short.

  2. #52
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This is the only reasonable answer to this question. To say that you dislike all poetry, whatever the reason, is to admit to an unreasonable prejudice. What's more, it's also to admit to being vulgar.
    I don't dislike all poetry. I just haven't seen any of the sort that I do like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    This is a terrible, terrible way to force poetry down on the students' throat. School fucks up pretty much everything, and you have to spend energy on not losing your interest. I'd say it's the most counter-productive institution in modern society.

    I still remember those horrible poetry lessons.
    I'm taking a Creative Writing class, which I THOUGHT would be about learning HOW to write in general to appeal to different audiences, what it entails, etc.

    If we had to focus on reading others' works instead of honing our own, I expected we'd read a variety of things: comedy, sci-fi, history-based fiction, plays, whatever. I expected that we'd read a BIT of poetry, but with other things as well.

    Instead, ALL WE DO is read poetry that the professor has chosen herself. The whole 'textbook' is 95% poetry. The class is daily, so every day, we have to read 5 more poems in an exact order, type up interpretations of them as pertaining to her topic (emotion, figurative language, description, etc) and hand it in each day, and discuss it in class according to a STRICT curriculum and schedule. (She's as J as they come.)

    If I had known that this was going to be a Poetry Reading class instead of a Creative Writing class, I would NEVER have taken it. I'm barely learning anything about how to improve my writing.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    The fact that I was able to break down what you said using a fraction of the verbiage, and the fact that what you said broke down into something seemingly incongruent, self evident, trivial, or/and narcissistic, is evidence of my claim.
    Yes, but there is of course a cost. Namely, that you omitted much of the reasoning and empirical examples used to support the assertions that were made. And these assertions, moreover, are not all of them self-evident; for what is self-evident to one may require proof to another and what is intuitively accepted by all may always turn out to be false. Therefore, although it is futile to try to prove something given, if what is given raises skepticism certainly a proof should be preferred to thoughtless acceptance. Now, it is the case that complex things can be systematically broken up into discrete parts, and if one looks with microscopic precision, everything shall appear quite evident upon its reduction, but it is unclear why this process is weird, silly, or stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    My motivations for our original discourse were your confrontational posts (in this thread) and your seemingly...misuse of logic.
    Nothing stated hitherto involved a misapplication of logic. To show otherwise you would need examples. As for the forgetful induction fallacy, you focused on my form and patterns to provide a basis for weirdness, which I am not inclined to dispute although not because of the pursuasiveness of your case. However, you have not expounded on the stupidity and silliness part of my post. Thus, you may either forget my post or forget what you said; otherwise, you will need to continue rationalizing and provide evidence for these other parts. If you cannot or concede that you made a mistake, then it follows that at that point in time you had committed a forgetful induction fallacy; otherwise you had reasons and evidence, which is what I was curious about in light of that particular post.

    Now, the big picture point is that your equation of me with trollness was falsified by the IQ post, which means on some level that post had information in it that was not a redundant quantity like the others; otherwise, it would have changed nothing of your perception of me. Thus, there were forgetful induction fallacies, but the question is how many and to what degree.

  4. #54
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    I don't dislike all poetry. I just haven't seen any of the sort that I do like.
    Then you just need to expand your repertoire.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #55
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    If enlightenment thinking is obsolete, then modern political systems and references of thought that stem from enlightenment thought would also be obsolete, however this is not the case and therefore enlightenment thinking is not entirely obsolete.
    This is an example of misuse of logic; one of many.

    Your response to my post was indeed lucid, and I do admit that my perceptions of your trollish tendencies were altered by your post on IQ. But to be fair, rather than make a claim, I asked a question, which means I actually didn't conclude anything. I still stand by my assertion that your posts could use some refinement.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    This is an example of misuse of logic; one of many.
    There is no misuse of logic. The logic is plainly, if p then q; not q, therefore not p. The logic is valid. The question is whether the premises are true. My supportive example is that, upon drawing a distinction between rational and historical knowledge--and thus by 'stem from enlightenment' I do not mean evolved from it (historical) but require it as a foundation (rational), that there are certain things like the law of comparative advantage which are still valid today. If enlightenment thinking were obsolete in its entirety, then this enlightened idea would also have to be obselete, which of course is not the case as it is common currency for many economists, globalizers, and so forth. That is all. No sensible agent would deny that Relativity, quantum physics, Keynesian economics, fuzzy logics, and so forth have replaced ideas (at least in terms of popularity and application) from the Enlightenment. That is not, however, to say that all Enlightenment thought is obsolete, as my counterexample indicates.

  7. #57
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    There is no misuse of logic. The logic is plainly, if p then q; not q, therefore not p. The logic is valid. The question is whether the premises are true. My supportive example is that, upon drawing a distinction between rational and historical knowledge--and thus by 'stem from enlightenment' I do not mean evolved from it (historical) but require it as a foundation (rational), that there are certain things like the law of comparative advantage which are still valid today. If enlightenment thinking were obsolete in its entirety, then this enlightened idea would also have to be obselete, which of course is not the case as it is common currency for many economists, globalizers, and so forth. That is all. No sensible agent would deny that Relativity, quantum physics, Keynesian economics, fuzzy logics, and so forth have replaced ideas (at least in terms of popularity and application) from the Enlightenment. That is not, however, to say that all Enlightenment thought is obsolete, as my counterexample indicates.
    Fair enough. Misunderstanding of word usage.
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  8. #58
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    That's resolved then. I agree with Provoker's last post too.

    (Not too sure about the credit given to Keynesian economics though. Try Marxist economcis instead - which ironically is the only school that today upholds Ricardo's Labour Theory of Value albeit in a modified form )
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  9. #59
    *hmmms* theadoor's Avatar
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    YES!
    Oh yeah?

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    That's resolved then. I agree with Provoker's last post too.

    (Not too sure about the credit given to Keynesian economics though. Try Marxist economcis instead - which ironically is the only school that today upholds Ricardo's Labour Theory of Value albeit in a modified form )
    Let the following points be noted: (1) That post was strictly referring to the popularity of these intellectual fashions which, even if wrongheaded (which I think many are), were nevertheless popular and represented a departure from the Enlightenment. Therefore, although Keynes, quantum physics, fuzzy logic, and so forth were lumped together, this in no way reflects the credit deserved for each. (2) As for Keynes, the short story is I will disagree that he is undeserving of credit as he was clearly the most influential economist of the 20th century, and his ideas for stimulating aggregate demand and ensuring global stability led to an unprecedented level of growth in the 50s and 60s--sometimes called the Golden Age of Capitalism. Overall, there was a higher level of global output in the third quarter of the 20th century, when Keynesian economics were popular, as compared to the fourth quarter, where neoclassical economics became fashionable again. Without going into too much detail, I support much of classical economics, but certainly one area where I part company with Mr. Marx, for example, is that there are economic situations in which everyone gains or else ones in which some people gain and no people lose, typically through rational gamesmanship, Nash equilibriums, and so forth, which goes against the Marxist idea that capital cannot be made better off without making labor worse off and vice versa. At the moment I have a world renown economist going over one of my papers, which I plan to get published shortly. Some of these ideas are addressed in it and I will link you to it in due time. However, I am reluctant to discuss it as there is no small danger that someone may steal my intellectual property and publish my findings before me.

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