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  1. #21
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    The worst was when we had to "interprete" poetry in school.
    This is a terrible, terrible way to force poetry down on the students' throat. School fucks up pretty much everything, and you have to spend energy on not losing your interest. I'd say it's the most counter-productive institution in modern society.

    I still remember those horrible poetry lessons.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Any other NTs find poetry BORING??
    Poetry is a world I am by and large excluded from experiencing in general. The reasons are fourfold: (1) I am literal-minded and think in terms of abstract concepts and syllogisms. Thus, like Kant I am unable to call visual images to mind most of the time. It follows that I could read and indeed memorize a poem, but that would be tantamount to memorizing ten license plate numbers in a parking lot and stringing them together. (2) Due to the aforementioned reason, the ideas strung together in concreto in poems require too much of a wrenching of my brain to be enjoyable--i.e. "he was feeling bad and so tricycle." (3) The first two reasons combine with a third, which is that poetry typically requires an appeal to emotion rather than reason, but my default mode of thought is reason rather than emotion. It follows that this reduces both sensual and emotional stimulation, which means that most poems do not arouse me. (4) As a general rule, poetry is unscientific and gains its legitimacy through excitation of the senses and emotion, which are counter to enlightenment thinking. Enlightened thinking, therefore, consists in placing reason and knowledge above belief and the whim of the moment, which is the business of poetry, among other things. From this it follows that the truth-seeker ought not own poetry books or hang fancy paintings in his house that merely induce him into endarkenment rather than enlightenment. (Note: the exception to this is art that appeals to the intellect rather than purely the senses and emotion. Therefore, listening to Mozart is acceptable, but listening to Wagner is not. Similarly, realist poetry and prose is acceptable from an enlightened point of view, while others are forms of endarkenment).

  3. #23
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I am surprised to see people who still identify "truth-seeking" with obsolete thinking from the enlightenment. The convenient truth of the immortal ratio is hardly tenable, but whatever, stick to your imagined wholeness if you'd like to. It's not much better than organized religion though.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I am surprised to see people who still identify "truth-seeking" with obsolete thinking from the enlightenment. The convenient truth of the immortal ratio is hardly tenable, but whatever, stick to your imagined wholeness if you'd like to. It's not much better than organized religion though.
    Obsolete thinking? Clearly this ignoramus is unsure of what he is talking about. His claim can be falsified however on many levels with the simple application of he modus tollens of classical logic--i.e. if enlightenment thinking is obsolete, then modern political systems and references of thought that stem from enlightenment thought would also be obsolete, however this is not the case and therefore enlightenment thinking is not entirely obsolete. To name just a few cases, various 20th and 21st century thinkers and scholars have frequently drawn on the ideas in Kant's Perpetual Peace--particularly democratic peace theorists. Kenneth Waltz has drawn on many of the ideas of Hobbes in his founding of neorealism. The neoliberal revolution that occurred in the 1980s was based on the old neoclassical economics of Adam Smith, David Ricardo, and others, which Keynes had argued against in 1936 in the General Theory.

    Now, if your claim was that the stock of enlightenment is down, then this would be a plausible claim. However, intellectual fashions, like stocks, rise and fall with the times. Therefore, to use the current popularity of enlightenment thinking as an argument against it is to commit an ad populum fallacy--namely, by assuming that popularity makes something valid or invalid. Fortunately, this is not the case for most things, for if it was one would be forced to conclude that 2+2=5 merely because everyone in the room feels it so or that Nazism is a valid doctrine because the Nazis were democratically elected in 1933. However, this is not the case and therefore your claim is untenable.

  5. #25
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Poetry is a world I am by and large excluded from experiencing in general. The reasons are fourfold: (1) I am literal-minded and think in terms of abstract concepts and syllogisms. Thus, like Kant I am unable to call visual images to mind most of the time. It follows that I could read and indeed memorize a poem, but that would be tantamount to memorizing ten license plate numbers in a parking lot and stringing them together. (2) Due to the aforementioned reason, the ideas strung together in concreto in poems require too much of a wrenching of my brain to be enjoyable--i.e. "he was feeling bad and so tricycle." (3) The first two reasons combine with a third, which is that poetry typically requires an appeal to emotion rather than reason, but my default mode of thought is reason rather than emotion. It follows that this reduces both sensual and emotional stimulation, which means that most poems do not arouse me. (4) As a general rule, poetry is unscientific and gains its legitimacy through excitation of the senses and emotion, which are counter to enlightenment thinking. Enlightened thinking, therefore, consists in placing reason and knowledge above belief and the whim of the moment, which is the business of poetry, among other things. From this it follows that the truth-seeker ought not own poetry books or hang fancy paintings in his house that merely induce him into endarkenment rather than enlightenment. (Note: the exception to this is art that appeals to the intellect rather than purely the senses and emotion. Therefore, listening to Mozart is acceptable, but listening to Wagner is not. Similarly, realist poetry and prose is acceptable from an enlightened point of view, while others are forms of endarkenment).
    My responses

    If this is satire:




    If this isn't satire:

    Paraphrase:
    Here are the 4 reasons why I don't like poetry:
    1. I cannot enjoy the imagery of poetry because my mind's eye has myopia.
    2. This myopia requires me to "mentally squint," which is too much effort to be enjoyable.
    3. I have an aversion to appeals to my emotion which, ironically, originates from the negative "internally based" emotions (embarrassment, shame, discomfort, etc.) I feel when something external touches me emotionally.
    4. Enlightenment is something I strive for, and I (falsely) define enlightenment as not allowing oneself to excite his own senses/emotions through whims of the moment.

    From these four personal reasons, I believe that anyone seeking truth ought not indulge in any of the "arts" unless they (the arts in question) are associated with intellectuals.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    if enlightenment thinking is obsolete, then modern political systems and references of thought that stem from enlightenment thought would also be obsolete,
    windows 7 is obsolete because DOS is obsolete

    should have bought that monet
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    windows 7 is obsolete because DOS is obsolete

    should have bought that monet
    Irrelevant.

  8. #28
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Provoker View Post
    Irrelevant.
    It's irrelevant that your argument is flawed?

    Oh, right, you have trouble with analogies. Sorry, that was inconsiderate of me.

    if enlightenment thinking is obsolete, then modern political systems and references of thought that stem from enlightenment thought would also be obsolete,
    This is incorrect. Obselescence of a predecessor does not imply obselescence of the child process. In fact, that is the opposite of the truth; a child process or innovation is a prerequisite for obsolescence. The fact that there are politics and modern systems of thought which are evolved from enlightenment thinking is evidence that enlightenment thinking is obsolete.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  9. #29
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Poetry's boring because most poets are narcissistic, self-indulging twits.

  10. #30
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Poetry's boring because most poets are narcissistic, self-indulging twits.
    Haha, same reason sports is boring.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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