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  1. #61
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo
    Well exactly. That's what I meant. The way she put it, it was like being in love would automatically not make you find anyone else attractive. Also, I can appreciate a painting, WISH it could grace my dining room wall, but all the while having no intention whatsoever of trying to acquire it.
    Yes, I think it's a matter of commitment, not desire. It's possible to desire someone or something without wanting to be involved (and thus committed in some way) to them. You're just acknowledging a natural reaction to them. You can even love someone without being committed to a particular style of relationship with them, and thus find yourself able to be attracted to and willing to commit to others.

    I see a distinction between the different ways that attractiveness/sex appeal affects me, dependent on whether I'm in a relationship or not. If I'm not in a relationship, then if I see someone I find very desirable, I do actually want them (usually not enough to try to "get" them though!). If I am in a relationship and I see that same person, I can acknowledge their appeal, but am somehow detached from it, as though it doesn't really apply to me. It's as if the "like" and "want" parts of my brain have become disconnected...?
    I can identify with that. That latter part to me is the "commitment" thing. If I'm with someone and I have a desire for someone else AND I find myself having to fight that feeling off all the time to keep from acting on it, it's showing me I'm not really committed to my current partner. If I'm happy and committed to the person I am with, then I can feel attracted to someone else but have no real desire to dump who I'm with to try to engage this other person; the desire is muted or rechanneled or irrelevant somehow. At least, that is what happens with me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #62
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    To say there are no inherent differences between men and women is simply ludicrous.

    The other day I was watching So You Think You Can Dance with my boy (which he didn't seem all that into). When a cheerleader with long blond hair and big breasts took the stage. Before she even started dancing my son suddenly looked up at me and said "Mom, I love her." I was like......hm. She hadn't performed she hadn't done anything yet, he just simply saw her. I teased him a little then let it go. During the montage they were showing tid bits of other contestants, and my son points out "Her, I love her!." Only it was a different girl, long blond hair, skinny, pretty face, and big breasts. Than another one came on, and another one. He said the same thing each time.

    This got me thinking about the crushes I had as a child. None of them were based on looks. All were based on a character or personality. I liked funny or goofy guys who could do martial arts and take down the bad guys. I also liked, the nerds. Who I thought seemed to express more character than the average guy who mingled with his social circle. Men with talents.

    Anyway, I started to have the idea, and it makes sense, that men have an inherently superficial quality about them. Even the guy who is most in love with his partner will be attracted to other women (whether he acts on it or not) while women who really love their partner would probably not be attracted to other men. In this way women are capable of a deeper and less superficial (physical or sensory) connection than men are capable of tapping into.

    And this realization explained a LOT of frustration I have had over the years with men, even the most sensitive of them, still could not understand the most basic of dimensional concepts.

    Now before you guys go all hissy on me, know that I am talking about men and women, NOT this man or this woman. Naturally there will always be an exception to the rule, though if we discount repeditive patterns for the sake of 100% accuracy we fail to see much of what truely goes on. I am not speaking of the exception here, I am speaking of the general.

    Think back to the sorts of "crushes" you had as a child vs your gender.

    Anyway beside that point, even if men had enough of an understanding that this dynamic did exist and through their values system tried to step out of the social stereotype, this would only mean they had the male perspective of a female. And, I imagine they would be subjecting themselves to over compensating for the natural dynamic.
    Women dont look at other guys when they love the one theyre with? Thats utter nonsense.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  3. #63
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think being trans gives a person SOME experience (and more than the typical person who spends their whole life "in one gender"), especially in regards to the social influences in play upon a person as well as comprehending hormonal influences... but I'm not quite sure that a transperson truly gets the gender they were assigned at birth. They might look like one, but are they really wired that way? The perception is still distorted.

    Just because a person might have lived as a male for many years, for example, doesn't mean that person understood a typical male mindset... and in fact that lack of understanding is what no doubt contributed a lot of angst, since the person was expected to behave as if they did. In fact, the identification with the other gender in terms of identity and alignment, vs the gender assigned at birth, is one primary indicator of the condition. You're trans, Prox, because you DIDN'T identify as a woman but as a man... and thus thought and behaved like one inherently. Anything female you picked up was due to socialization, not necessarily an inherent understanding.
    Yeah, all good points. Still, it's about as close as it can get to really understanding life from the other side of the fence, innit.

    Being "secondary" though, I actually DID identify as a woman for about 18 to 22 years of my life. I didn't know it was possible to identify as anything but your assigned/genetic gender, so I ran with what I was given. Okay, exactly because I didn't have an inherent understanding, I screwed it up, QED. But, by the same token, the fact I couldn't DO female, doesn't mean I didn't/don't understand it. I feel more like a tennis coach - I fully understand the game and the skills required to be a top player and I can coach someone into a Rafael Nadal. I just can't DO it myself.

    In the end, do either of us think truly like either our genetic or reassigned gender? Neither of us have (or ever will) experienced the world as these folks do that get the right body first time round. Our perceptions even of our true gender experiences are coloured by the unique ways that we came into them. We have insight that "normal" folks don't, so it's not really possible that we'll ever see things entirely in the same light as others of our gender. Having embraced that fact, I find it quite a good vantage point that we're given, from which we can "see" the patterns of both sides - both the one we abandoned, and the one we now stand with one foot in, the other probably firmly wedged in the centre.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  4. #64
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Yeah, all good points. Still, it's about as close as it can get to really understanding life from the other side of the fence, innit.
    We both agree it's the "best you can get."

    The question was whether it was sufficient enough to count as a "true" understanding.

    Being "secondary" though, I actually DID identify as a woman for about 18 to 22 years of my life. I didn't know it was possible to identify as anything but your assigned/genetic gender, so I ran with what I was given. Okay, exactly because I didn't have an inherent understanding, I screwed it up, QED. But, by the same token, the fact I couldn't DO female, doesn't mean I didn't/don't understand it. I feel more like a tennis coach - I fully understand the game and the skills required to be a top player and I can coach someone into a Rafael Nadal. I just can't DO it myself.
    We don't actually know that that is true. It's probably the best working assumption you can make, but is it actually true? Even people happy with their birth-assigned gender only know their own experiences, and they only can generalize to make them "gender experiences" by conferring with other people's experiences. There is no way to internally validate what a particular experience is supposed to feel like.

    Anyway, your last paragraph... this is why some people see it as a third gender, not one of the two binaries, since the feet are inevitably positioned in a way that someone firmly in male or female camp can't be.

    I didn't want to drag the discussion off-topic, I just wanted to qualify what is being said since it's being used to frame the conversation. Yes, being trans gives a wider perspective and helps isolate some points of male/female experience; but it's not totally clear-cut.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    There is no way to internally validate what a particular experience is supposed to feel like.
    Right enough. That's why I've spent the last near on ten years externally researching it. No, of course it doesn't give me total knowledge or authority, but as close to it as most people are going to meet!

    I didn't want to drag the discussion off-topic, I just wanted to qualify what is being said since it's being used to frame the conversation. Yes, being trans gives a wider perspective and helps isolate some points of male/female experience; but it's not totally clear-cut.
    Ah right, yew wuz bein pedantik. Okayz

    *ducks*
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Ah right, yew wuz bein pedantik. Okayz
    *ducks*
    Just bear with your Ji sis, it's what we do.
    Stop being so darn pragmatic.

    *doesn't throw the rotten melon until Prox relaxes and looks the other way*

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    This road goes both ways guys.
    1) Urine on the toilet seat.
    I don't think I ever responded to this. That's a good one.
    You can add "floor" as well. My boys also have really bad aim.

    Also, leaving the seat up overnight ... I'm tired of falling in at 3am in the dark.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    One day and the next Rainne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mask Manifest View Post
    This was touched on in the PUA thread. Men do tend to be more visual, but beauty is subjective. Some men are attracted to thin women; some are attracted to heavier women. Looks are not irrelevant to most women either. As far as who is more superficial between men and women, in general, I would say that both are equally superficial in different ways. Women tend to be more materialistic and seek men who can provide them with possessions, and are more concerned about social status and where their men stand in relation to other men; whereas guys are superficial mostly concerning physical beauty.
    I agree with this lol

    The "Is she hot?" vs. "What does he do for a living?"

  8. #68
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Urine on the toilet seat is NOT the sole area of the male. Nuh-uh. I used to live with a woman who, apparently, because of the way she sat on the toilet, her pee splashed off the bowl and back up to the underside of the seat. So the unsuspecting male who lifted up the seat got her piss all over his hands. It most definitely was her, but she would die before she admitted it.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  9. #69
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Urine on the toilet seat is NOT the sole area of the male. Nuh-uh. I used to live with a woman who, apparently, because of the way she sat on the toilet, her pee splashed off the bowl and back up to the underside of the seat. So the unsuspecting male who lifted up the seat got her piss all over his hands. It most definitely was her, but she would die before she admitted it.
    I didn't say it was. I've just more commonly run across it with guys, but it still happens in the woman's restrooms as well. Quantity seems to be different too... esp if the guy was drinking.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I didn't say it was.
    I didn't say you did say it was! Quit quibbling with everything I say!

    ()
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

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