User Tag List

First 816171819 Last

Results 171 to 180 of 182

  1. #171
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    There are a variety of ways around someone who doesn't want to learn. Its always personally tailored to each individual you just need to know which buttons to press and in which order to disrupt their concentration long enough for you to slip your data in. You've never broken someone in denial down and let them collapse into you and told them just the right thing they needed to hear at that moment? I know how terribly manipulative that sounds, but we all do it to each other every single day, much of the time unconsciously, whats wrong with using it as a tactic *if* it works, and you know the person well enough to know their limits? Some types of therapists get paid huge money to do just that.
    No, I usually tell them directly and if they don't get it I keep explaining and trying to figure out what they don't understand, until either they get it or I give up. Sometimes it comes down to fundamental values/beliefs, in which case it's a matter of seeing each other's entire reasoning so that we can forgive each other for having different opinions.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  2. #172
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    MBTI
    INfj
    Enneagram
    6w5
    Posts
    740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think people will only change if they themselves WANT to change. Thus you can't directly initiate change, nor can you try to 'convince' them that your way is better; it may cause them to dig their heels in even further (and this also begs the question, how does one decide whether one way is 'right' or not? Ultimately a lot of this can boil down to individually constructed value systems as well as priorities). I suppose mbti could assist on some level...knowing the 'language' the individual speaks (logic vs emotion, etc, although this thread is case in point that it isn't that black and white), and appealing to them in that manner.

    I don't think I'm the one to ask HOW to help people change, as again, I don't believe they WILL change unless they decide for themselves that there is value in changing, and they desire to change. So, unless someone actively seeks help/advice, or reaches that point of wanting to change, I think it's kinda pointless to try to nudge them. That's just my general view on the matter; I suppose on a case-by-case basis I might vary that stance a little bit. Edit: I might make clear or tangent off into why *I* do things the way I do, because that's keeping it real and I'm just sharing my views on things, and then it's up to them to grab onto tendrils of that if they so choose. If nothing else I've planted a seed.

    I think just showing by example, by living your own life in a positive way, showing by your OWN action/behavior what you deem right, works more wonders than active change. There will always be those observing who may decide, of their own volition, that some other way of being is worth exploring.

    Which is why I don't believe in the concept of Revenge. It seems so hypocritical. You're basically acting out the very behavior you found unacceptable in another - you're stooping to 'their' level, if you will.

    I know I didn't answer your question; I would have to give more thought to methods of actually trying to nudge people in a different direction - for example, in the case of a family member or other individual who you care about or who you can't and won't remove from your life and need to work with instead.
    See, that makes perfect sense to me :3 I wish you could explain that to my family.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Re. optimism, pessimism, or realism, I think I am generally optimistic in terms of my own life, realistic regarding individual humans, and more pessimistic in terms of humans on a society/group-mode level.
    The reason I asked is because optimism/pessimism is associated with the concept of 'locus of control' - that is, if you are optimistic about something, you will feel like you can do something about it...like good things happen because of your actions, and like bad things happen because of circumstances outside of your control...

    I wonder if people who are more 'manipulative' are more 'optimistic' about the people they are dealing with.
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  3. #173
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by proximo View Post
    Ah OK then MLF, looks like we're working from different definitions of empathy. Semantics alert!
    The problem starts with the complexity of empathy itself. One aspect is simply the ability to see the world from the perspective of another. Another is more emotional – the ability to imagine what the other is feeling and care about their pain as a result.
    Autistic children tend to develop the first part of empathy – which is called "theory of mind" – later than other kids.
    ....
    Studies have found that when people are overwhelmed by empathetic feelings, they tend to pull back. When someone else's pain affects you deeply, it can be hard to reach out rather than turn away.
    For people with autism spectrum disorder, these empathetic feelings might be so intense that they withdraw in a way that appears cold or uncaring.
    This type of emotional sensitivity doesn't necessarily result in taking action on the other's behalf, but is implicated in inhibiting behaviours.

    Psychopaths are the opposite: they have no difficulty with theory of mind, but they do not experience affective empathy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #174
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Ahhhhh... back to normalcy.

  5. #175
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    584

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    This type of emotional sensitivity doesn't necessarily result in taking action on the other's behalf, but is implicated in inhibiting behaviours.

    Psychopaths are the opposite: they have no difficulty with theory of mind, but they do not experience affective empathy.
    Yeah, I don't buy that though. I mean, it might be the case in some autistic individuals, but not as a result of the autism itself. I know my kid. I've talked with her at great length over the years and I'm about as sure as I could be that she is most definitely not in the least bit affected by the emotions of those around her. The only way in which I can discern her to ever be affected is indirectly, for example if, due to their feelings, people are making a lot of noise. It's simply the noise she dislikes - I'm pretty confident that she hasn't a Scooby what the reasons for it are, and if she seems to get upset then it's exactly because a lot of noise is happening (and she doesn't like noise) and she doesn't know why (which means she can't predict it, control it, or stop it).

    If it were autism that occasioned/enabled this "acute empathy", then my daughter's been misdiagnosed, which is incredibly unlikely as she's been diagnosed the same by 4 independent specialists. Plus, I've lived with her for 11 years and spent years attending clinics, help groups, parent groups, you name it, I homeschool her ffs so I'm with her 24/7/365, as well as formerly working in a care home for adults with autism that buried me up to the eyeballs in training... I know there are a LOT of theories about autism out there, but I have to filter them through my experience
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  6. #176
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    ^No doubt the clinical picture varies. It's just one model for a poorly understood (and probably over-diagnosed) disorder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    The illogicality is the NF assuming the girl feels the same way he does.
    Which is actually evidence of a cognitive empathy failure, isn't it?
    Empathy acknowledges and respects the integrity of the individual. It projects into their situation rather than imposing an external standard.
    Fe does not. It's all about the group and behavioural norms. Specifically, sacrificing individual interests for the sake of the collective. It has more of a connection to sympathy (feeling alike). That's my take on it, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    After all, we're herd animals, not lone hunter-killers.
    We're hunter-gatherers. Some better at hunting, some better at gathering.
    So, an eye for an eye method of teaching someone a lesson, although it may prove to be effective, is not the best method of teaching in my book. We should strive to put ourselves above that and find better, more humane, ways of teaching.
    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." - Ghandi
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #177
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    See, that makes perfect sense to me :3 I wish you could explain that to my family.


    The reason I asked is because optimism/pessimism is associated with the concept of 'locus of control' - that is, if you are optimistic about something, you will feel like you can do something about it...like good things happen because of your actions, and like bad things happen because of circumstances outside of your control...

    I wonder if people who are more 'manipulative' are more 'optimistic' about the people they are dealing with.
    haha, thanks.

    I can see how those who are more manipulative are more optimistic in the person changing or in believing they have the ability to do that.

    But those who are optimistic are not necessarily manipulative Optimism in ones fellow man does not imply that they see the need/benefit in being manipulative. There are other ways.

    (I suppose that would be a whole other discussion - what exactly IS manipulation? I believe an important factor is motivation of the doer, as an outsider/observer might label something as manipulative when the person doing the 'manipulative' action may not have any ulterior motive. I mean, there are obviously those who are really sneaky and are deliberately playing people or pushing certain buttons because they know or think it'll work, and that's more conscious/deliberate, as they have a certain desired end result in mind. Maybe those who don't have a desire of a certain outcome, or who aren't trying to forcefully push their own ego/self/view onto the other wouldn't be manipulating, then? I dunno.. gotta think that through more. haha.)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  8. #178
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    3h50
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    4,460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    Reality cannot be defeated!!!!!
    Three letters - L S D

  9. #179
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Manipulation isn't manipulation without motive. I'm just saying that most, if not all, of the time the person manipulating knows they are doing so. Depending on how well they do so is a different matter. This is why the word has such a foul taste in our mouthes when we say it. The pain (or in some views help) it causes is usually intentional.

  10. #180
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Mere alterations cannot defeat THE REALITY!!!

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] [NT] Who are you easier to communicate with: NF or ST
    By Elaine in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 08-05-2014, 07:25 PM
  2. [NT] NT! Why are you ASSHOLES?
    By ThatGirl in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 210
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 09:32 PM
  3. [NT] NTs . . . Why are You Messy?
    By Haight in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 112
    Last Post: 06-23-2009, 12:24 PM
  4. [NT] Question for NT Women - Are you a feminist?
    By Lauren Ashley in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: 03-06-2009, 04:48 PM
  5. [NT] NT, How Are You NOT Like Your Type Description?
    By SquirrelTao in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: 09-27-2008, 05:05 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO