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  1. #101
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecttcelfeR View Post
    You can't force someone who doesn't want to learn to learn. It should be left at that. They'll soon find that they should've learned, but it's their fault, not yours.
    There are a variety of ways around someone who doesn't want to learn. Its always personally tailored to each individual you just need to know which buttons to press and in which order to disrupt their concentration long enough for you to slip your data in. You've never broken someone in denial down and let them collapse into you and told them just the right thing they needed to hear at that moment? I know how terribly manipulative that sounds, but we all do it to each other every single day, much of the time unconsciously, whats wrong with using it as a tactic *if* it works, and you know the person well enough to know their limits? Some types of therapists get paid huge money to do just that.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  2. #102
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    And it's not so much the fact of order, as is the fact that no matter what they are coupled together. Whether you think then act, or act then think.

  3. #103
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    We're sheep with plastic money. :P
    Some of us are sheep that's for sure. like 90% of us. Others... not so much.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  4. #104
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    You are taking a huge risk forcing someone to do something they don't wish to do.

  5. #105
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    There are a variety of ways around someone who doesn't want to learn. Its always personally tailored to each individual you just need to know which buttons to press and in which order to disrupt their concentration long enough for you to slip your data in. You've never broken someone in denial down and let them collapse into you and told them just the right thing they needed to hear at that moment? I know how terribly manipulative that sounds, but we all do it to each other every single day, much of the time unconsciously, whats wrong with using it as a tactic *if* it works, and you know the person well enough to know their limits? Some types of therapists get paid huge money to do just that.
    But what if we all assume we can all reach the same potential, that we are all capable of learning and becoming wiser. That instead of manipulatively trying to teach people, we can have them learn those wisdoms on a much more human way, would then that which is learnt not only count for much more, but be a good step into creating a much better environment for everyone to live in as well?

    I'm just saying, why stop at our medieval ways of teaching people, when there is the potential to do it much more effectively with much better results.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #106
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    This is what I mean about how an empathic person can USE their empathy as JUSTIFICATION for inflicting cruelty on others and then even for seeking sympathy for how it hurts THEM to do it! And behaving in a cold and callous way that I know I, as an NT, am just not capable of.

    I refrain from cruel behaviour because I believe it's philosophically wrong in every way - no "circumstances" or saying "this is different" changes that. Not only do I not believe that words like "deserve" are applicable in any argument that's valid to my mind, but I firmly believe that people are only ever "improved" by being shown good examples.

    Somebody being cruel to me does not constitute justification for me to then behave in the same way "just to show them", using some holier than thou cock and bullshit story about how it's "for their benefit" to justify my acting out of self-righteous revenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    parents, teachers, cops, lol we are all teachers, and we are all students. It doesnt matter who gives the lesson, only that people learn and grow. If I have to use emotional pain on someone...
    Sure thing, your holiness. They MADE you do it. They had it coming.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  7. #107
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    A very logical way to approach the situation, like a game... a gifted NF manipulator would then take your emotions wherever/whatever they are and set them on fire until you couldnt stand it anymore. And they wouldnt do it by chastising you and lecturing thats a more NT way to do things.
    Not sure you understood what I meant. I have completely tuned them out at this point. They have no way "in", therefore there is no way to manipulate or play games. As soon as any kind of manipulation occurs = no contact.

    I have a wonderful NF friend who has been doing this with me for months now. She's still miffed about the way I handled something. It's been several months and every time she starts going back to that event (or even talking about something somewhat related to it), I know she's thinking about it. So, I cut her off at the pass and say, "I've gotta run." So a few weeks will go by and she'll call. I answer to see what's going on with my friend (how are you, how have you been, etc). Sure enough, 15 minutes into the conversation, she starts taking some sort of "backdoor approach" to the thing that happened months ago (or some other reference to my character). "OK, thanks for calling. I have some things I need to take care of now."

    There's nothing she can do with my emotions (set them on fire, go ahead, but you'll be doing it by yourself) if she has no opportunity to do so.

    If I were married to an NF, then sure, I guess I'd have to "play the chess match". But, with friends, the game is just simply over before it even begins. I sense that it's very frustrating to them but, like I said, I just refuse to play it. I've got other things to do. I love you, but I refuse to play the game.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #108
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    you just need to know which buttons to press and in which order to disrupt their concentration long enough for you to slip your data in.
    Or you could just mind your own damn business and leave the person to learn things in their own time and way, rather than being an irritating moral busy-body.

    Maybe forgiveness is a better lesson to teach someone, or example to set them, than "if they hurt you, hurt them back!"
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
    Preferences: 20% Extravert, 98% Intuitive, 68% Thinker, 17% Perceiving

  9. #109
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Not sure you understood what I meant. I have completely tuned them out at this point. They have no way "in", therefore there is no way to manipulate or play games. As soon as any kind of manipulation occurs = no contact.

    I have a wonderful NF friend who has been doing this with me for months now. She's still miffed about the way I handled something. It's been several months and every time she starts going back to that event (or even talking about something somewhat related to it), I know she's thinking about it. So, I cut her off at the pass and say, "I've gotta run." So a few weeks will go by and she'll call. I answer to see what's going on with my friend (how are you, how have you been, etc). Sure enough, 15 minutes into the conversation, she starts taking some sort of "backdoor approach" to the thing that happened months ago (or some other reference to my character). "OK, thanks for calling. I have some things I need to take care of now."

    There's nothing she can do with my emotions (set them on fire, go ahead, but you'll be doing it by yourself) if she has no opportunity to do so.

    If I were married to an NF, then sure, I guess I'd have to "play the chess match". But, with friends, the game is just simply over before it even begins. I sense that it's very frustrating to them but, like I said, I just refuse to play it. I've got other things to do. I love you, but I refuse to play the game.

    well any random NF off the street would get tuned out, but one you loved and respected? Maybe not so easy.
    Ground control to Major Tom

  10. #110
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    4 against 1... ouch.

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