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  1. #61
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    ^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.
    As I said before, it's nebulous, and it is not supposed to translate that way.

    But, I guess it does.

    Regardless, it is just my *own* beliefs and feelings regarding my *own* categorizations/definitions of T-ness, F-ness, I-ness, E-ness, J-ness, P-ness, N-ness, and S-ness,

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #62
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Extroversion - peacockery

    Introversion - silent sentience

    Sensing - seeing is believing

    Intuition - believing/feeling is seeing

    Thinking - rational/pragmatic/objective

    Feeling - caring/communal/egalitarian/empathetic

    Judging - Order

    Perceiving - chaos/cycles
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #63
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Btw, utyuun, are you an INTJ female?

    I've never been quite sure about your sexuality...
    I am.

    Isn't ambiguity deliciously feminine according to your ideas, though? You could've known.


  4. #64
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    ^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.
    Quiet, reserved, but not overtly feminine. Most ENTP women, especially the 30 plus crowd, that I have observed, appear more feminine that the ENFP women though or the INFP women.

    Just my observations though.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if my relationship issues are based so much in masculine/feminine tendencies. My core issue in them seems to be the general lack of feeling connected to people. (I'm also a 4w5 though, which may play a part)
    Embrace the possibilities.

  6. #66
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    Extroversion - peacockery

    Introversion - silent sentience

    Sensing - seeing is believing

    Intuition - believing/feeling is seeing

    Thinking - rational/pragmatic/objective

    Feeling - caring/communal/egalitarian/empathetic

    Judging - Order

    Perceiving - chaos/cycles
    So, it sounds like whoever said femininity changes was wrong. This is pretty much what the general population of men sought after in a woman for centuries, someone caring, dependent more so on emotions, quiet etc.

    Plus, personality is, for the most part, genderless. We just put sticky notes of gender on them in order to make unconscious generalizations.

  7. #67
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    ^ except by default that suggests that an INFP would be the most feminine type, which reality doesn't support. The INFPs I've known did not present that way.
    Indeed; especially when one thinks the feminine qualities are commensurate with being the dish-rag in the soapy water of life.

    If you believe T-type attributes to be by nature more masculine, and F-type traits to be feminine, naturally, you could extrapolate and say that T women may seem more masculine by having these qualities and living them.

    And I could see it being an issue for T women to find men who can appreciate their strengths without feeling challenged by them.

    But I've met feminine men and they were not F; I've met masculine women who were not T. It's more complicated I think than simply making a formula derived from MBTI on what constitutes femininity and masculinity.

    A woman can be strong and still be feminine. A woman can demonstrate intelligence and still be feminine. A woman can seem aloof and still be feminine. A woman can be assertive and ... you get the idea.

    This could be a huge topic of course, exploring masculine and feminine archetypes, but I'll just add a great quote from Osho instead:

    "It is the long condemnation of feminine qualities that has gone deep into the blood and the bones of women. It is man's conspiracy to prove himself superior to women -- which he is not.

    And to prove that the woman is weak, he has to condemn all the feminine qualities. He has to say that they are all weak, and all those qualities together make the woman weak. In fact, the woman has all the great qualities in her. And whenever a man becomes awakened, he attains to the same qualities which he has been condemning in women. The qualities that are thought to be weak are all the feminine qualities. And it is a strange fact that all the great qualities come into that category. What is left are only the brutal qualities, animal qualities.

    Love, trust, beauty, sincerity, truthfulness, authenticity -- these are all feminine qualities, and they are far greater than any qualities that man has. But the whole past has been dominated by man and his qualities".

    Osho, excerpted from Sermons in Stones, Chapter 17


    Life is about attaining a balance point, feminine and masculine in harmony, yin and yang ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #68
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    FWIW, I think I think in a more typically masculine way, and I don't defer to men just because they're men. But no one would ever call me masculine.

    I tend to be attracted to men who are pretty balanced as well--maybe the flip side of me. Seemingly pretty masculine at first glance, unafraid to pursue if he sees a woman he's attracted to (or at least willing to put himself out there anyway), but not married to gender roles and not fixated on what masculinity is, and what femininity is. It's really less of a formula than the feeling of two personalities complementing each other without worrying so much about the labels.
    Very much so. Actually, I see anyone who embodies extreme masculinity or femininity so that they become a walking stereotype as unbalanced and, paradoxically, undifferentiated. I find myself drawn to "masculine" women and "feminine" men since both seem to be capable of expanding their consciousness beyond mundane cliches. Perhaps because they have to - nurture pushes them in one direction, nature pulls them in another. Those who resolve this conflict successfully are among the most interesting, intelligent, creative, well-rounded people I have ever encountered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I'm not going to respond to your patronizing and juvenile post by flaming you. I understand that the fallacy you've been trying to point out in my post is the false dilemma (though you've confused this with the straw man.) Quite simply, you claim that:

    (1) All people have a mixture of masculinity and femininity.
    (2) This mixture varies in composition depending on personality type.
    (3) NTs tend to have more masculinity and less femininity.
    (4) More masculine/less feminine types are attracted to more feminine types.
    (5) More masculine/less feminine types are still attracted, in their heart of hearts, to more masculine types.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Therefore...

    (C1) NTs are attracted to more feminine types.
    (C2) NTs are attracted to more masculine types.
    ...
    I do love to witness a good Ti pwn. The idea that he thought he could instruct you in critical thinking is laughably ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post
    That T-ness is more masculine than F-ness

    That E-ness is more masculine than I-ness

    That J-ness is more masculine than P-ness <--lulz

    And that S-ness is more masculine than N-ness.

    ^The above statements are my own nebulous beliefs, and no, I don't care if they are not valid by any body else's standards, they're my own, thank you very much.
    I said as much here:
    I guess these mesh with common cultural ideas about masculinity and femininity. Interestingly, the BBC are conducting a huge research project on personality type distribution. And they have found the following:
    Personality and gender

    For the first time, we are able to see that men tend to score higher for the trait of Openness than women. Intriguingly, this suggests that men tend to have a higher sensitivity for art and beauty than women, whereas women tend to be more practical.
    Other findings confirmed previous research. Women scored higher on average than men in Agreeableness, Conscientiousness, and Neuroticism. In other words, women tend to be more caring, dependable and emotional, while men tend to be more competitive, distracted and even-tempered.
    These are Big 5 measures.
    If we use a rough correlation:
    E = E/I
    O = N/S
    A = F/T
    C = J/P

    Then, if we are going to use the definition of feminine as "more likely to be found in women", we have the following pattern (for the British population, at least).

    E/I - no gender distinction

    More "masculine" ----> More "feminine"
    N-----> S
    T-----> F
    P-----> J

    The T/F split is well-documented and there are a plenty of supporting theories for this phenomenon. NP v SJ is perhaps more surprising...though not really; it's almost a corollary, if we accept that right-hemisphere development tends to start earlier and be more pronounced in males due to the effects of androgen on the developing fetal brain.

    Actually, this does make sense; SFJs are the closest types to the feminine archetype. They're also mostly women/most women are of this type.

    According to that source, I is also (slightly) more common in males than E.

    That would make INTP the most masculine type.
    Someone should really tell INTP men that.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's more complicated I think than simply making a formula derived from MBTI on what constitutes femininity and masculinity.
    Of course it is, but we're NTs! Formulae are our forte.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Peacebaby, I agree that it is more complicated than type. I was completely with you until I started reading the quote you put in near the end. The author of the quote is basically saying that all that is good is in the feminine side of our natures, and all that is 'animalistic' and 'brutal' is masculine.

    In fact, the woman has all the great qualities in her. And whenever a man becomes awakened, he attains to the same qualities which he has been condemning in women. The qualities that are thought to be weak are all the feminine qualities. And it is a strange fact that all the great qualities come into that category. What is left are only the brutal qualities, animal qualities.
    That seems like a pretty narrow (almost hateful?) way of looking at masculine vs feminine. While it may read as pretty and uplifting for women... I find it a bit insulting, and I'm not even a guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Life is about attaining a balance point, feminine and masculine in harmony, yin and yang ...
    I find it interesting that you put this at the end of your post after the previous quote that seemed to uphold the strict divide between the masculine and the feminine. The quote you chose screams 'US versus THEM'.

    The Yin/Yang concept though isn't about division, its about unity. About one not being able to exist without the other. How all things in nature must return to a state of balance. Like a rubber-band with too much tension - there will be an opposite reaction of equal force (Hardness to softness, fast to slow) and eventually a state of harmony is reached. In the true understanding of Yin and Yang, masculine and feminine are ONE, not two.

    The contrast between your quote and the reference to Yin and Yang philosophies was too much for my brain to handle. I think I short-circuited for a minute.

    Embrace the possibilities.

  10. #70
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    I think Tawanda is quite correct here. It's an unconscious generalization, that, when the generalization is brought to the surface and realized makes sense to most of the populace (that of the United States) and so it's allowed to wallow back where it came from. No emotion (or inanimate object) is inheretly masculine or femine, unless the object is designed specifically for that gender in which case it is meant exactly for that gender.

    To say that an emotion is weak doesn't make sense (poor word choice by most).

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